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Overheating 1969 1500SP... please help... I'm out of options
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's -supposed- to be... it wasn't. I just tore the engine down.
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Cadaver
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

as you know:
the engine is both air cooled and oil cooled.
course running it dry, is a first order problem.
some serious engine oiling problems you have.
you saw pressure drops in turns?

you must be racing it, to collect oil in the VC.
ouch. pulling some big time lateral "G" are you?

that pump to casing deal is an interference fit.
it must not suck air on the suction side
or blow it out, the other side. (a full flow kit solves the pressure side.)
getting that suction side sealed up, is a more complex matter.

running full flow? filter?, that is one more liter of oil in the loop.
GBE pump must be installed on a open case, it mangles the seal, going in.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5565157


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Last edited by Cadaver on Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:01 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, no. The overheating was a symptom, not the cause. The cause was excessive clearance between the case and oil pump. At high speed, the left valve cover collects oil, and the reduction in oil in the sump caused the pump to suck air, resulting in reduced lubrication, and hot oil. The reduced lubrication killed the bearing, while the hot oil turned on the light.

Now I build a new engine, and take every precaution and cooling trick I can find. (windage tray, windage pushrod tubes, o-ringed oil pump, doghouse cooling system, bob hoover mods, etc.)

Oh, and my compression ratio was fine.
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Cadaver
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you overheated it, and spun a bearing (my bad for not telling you to run mobil one , until the overheat was solved.. m1 runs up to 300F (tested too)
check the deck height and CR test. do that make sure
the CR is stock. or it will make lots more heat.
CR makes more power (matching fuel octane) but makes more heat.


i highly recommend reading
2 books
Tom wilsons
and Bill fishers.

see them here. under BOOKS

http://ac-vw-remove.com/info.html

the bug is a light car but of you have increased displacement or CR or both.
then it will make more heat when flogged hard. (not driving normally)
normal driving makes normal heat.
the stock cooling system has extra cooling overhead, not as much as a
DOG house, but does.
pay close attention to the CR
my 1600 does (on a box stock 1500 block 68 ) does not over heat .
but i dont drive it over 60. (i never drive relics of that, and for sure on super hard to find SP heads... im crazy for trying to run SP heads.. never again. )
i'd not run any relic with out gauges.. its way too old for running blind.

I have tach,oil pressure, oil temp. and volts, soon to have CHT,
CHT is hard to fit up , (easy with motor out)

at the very least pressure and oil temp,, are very helpful.

next time,, 044 heads, and full dog house. and not look back....
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well...
After a month-long ordeal trying to get an intake manifold that fits, seals, and has a clear heat riser...


The engine spun a bearing. Now I tear her down and do an autopsy, and rebuild whatever's left.
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Cadaver
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think the 1500 tins will work so long as he dont flog it up hill loaded.
no power pulleys allowed. just easy normal driving...

engine to tin rubbers in place front and rear. no missing tins.
thermostat works.
Missing tins?( even the sled tins make the STAT work on the right)

one guy found a SP fan in a DP housing. it overheated.

so closed inspections are important. (dont feel bad the tins dont just yell at you and say, Im the wrong tin... its a humbling experience....)
close photos posted though will get fast responses here with the very sharp eyes, here.. im sure.
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danielsan
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guesses.

1. You need a doghouse shroud, fan and cooler. Sounds like you are using the 1500 cooling system. The 1500 set up isn't designed to take the heat that the 1600 produces at highway speeds. It really didn't take care of the 1500 very well . . . .

2. The builder might have just slapped on some cylinders without measuring deck height and you might have either too much deck or one cylinder way off.

Its not what you want to do but you can change the cooing system and measure the deck in a weekend.

http://www.aircooledtech.com/deck_height/

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Deck-Height-Measuring-Tool-Deluxe-p/deck-height-tool.htm
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Cadaver
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GOOD,

that leaves
RISER
and CARB tuning.....
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Last edited by Cadaver on Thu May 31, 2012 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I double checked the dizzy over the last few days. It works perfectly, according to the oldvolkshome description, and the carb ports are clear. I triple checked it, by using a timing light and vacuum pump after marking the crank pulley. Dizzy is good. I then "Teed" a vacuum line into the distributor vacuum line, and ran it up to the passenger seat. I get 5"Hg during part-throttle, and just over 3"Hg at WOT just before I hit the rev-limit. That's working, too.

No air leaks. I checked with carb cleaner spray.

All I've got left is the heat riser. Hope it works.
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Cadaver
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so many things to check
seems you have dont them all now.... sorry for your grief !!!

if the motor overheats
36 ways to overheat a bug motor, tins are 1


the riser just must work. on a stock single carb motor.
if you run 1600 under SP tins. it might work too.
so long as you dont flog it too hard up hill.
or lug the the motor badly.
that 1600 jug will have same CR if your builder was not FUNKY.

once the disty works right and using a stock disty with matching carb
is one easy path.
dont run 009 unless Glenn tunes it for you, better is stock are SVDA setup.
(or you plot the curve of yours and post it 900 to 3500 rpm every 500)



after that , then riser fixes, and last carb tuning
the riser my be so hot you cant touch it.
your carb may have issues.... some have 10 issues,
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Last edited by Cadaver on Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:40 am; edited 3 times in total
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jhicken
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How are you taking temp readings? Are you just figuring it's hot because the oil pressure light is coming on at idle? Put a gauge on it and see what the actual temp is. What color are you plugs? If they are white you could be lean which would raise your temps.

-jeffrey
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

First off, candymustang66:
You clearly didn't read all of the rest of the thread. It took me a while to make myself read through everything you were telling me to check that I'd already done. That said: I've know that my heat riser was clogged, but didn't even think that it might be related to the overheating... More on that later.

Two or three weeks ago (this -is- my daily, btw), she started to misfire under load. Idle was as smooth as ever. I drove her for a week that way before I finally had time to try and find the problem. Here's what I found:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

By alpha_maverick at 2012-05-27

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By alpha_maverick at 2012-05-27

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By alpha_maverick at 2012-05-27

Well... that would certainly cause a problem... But It wasn't like that before, so it's not the source of my overheat.
I dug around here, and found that it wasn't all that uncommon. Last weekend, I filled the hole with JB Weld. Smooth and clean fix. I didn't take any pics of the repair, though. She still overheats, so that wasn't it.

When I finally got around to reading everything candymustang66 posted, I realized that my heat riser, or lack thereof, may be the culprit. I dug around on the net, and found this:
http://www.carburetorclinic.com/heatriser_tech.html
In that, you'll see that (effective) mixture is certainly affected by the heat riser and how well it functions. I then knew I needed to clean mine. Yesterday, I had the day off, and got an early start, with some stranded cable from Home Depot. After several hours of getting covered in various shades of carbon, I got the cable stuck in the heat riser. After trying to break it loose from the other side, I burned through the wall at one of the bends. At that point, I decided that I was wasting effort, so I just called it a day, and ordered a new Repro manifold from Mid-America. I've not been terribly impressed with their quality, so we'll see how it goes. I'm now driving my 8mpg truck, until I get the new manifold installed.
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Cadaver
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i consolidated my above post
and added the Macro ways and Micro examples.
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, I did. I have -all- tins in place. I said that earlier.

I have already confirmed that the flaps are fully open at temperature. several times.

What do you mean "not too sold"? It's the factory 1969 distributor, and it reaches full advance by ~3 in Hg, just like it's supposed to. I'm not sure that it's -getting- that signal, and that's my next test.
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morymob
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

U never did verify if u have the flat tins under the cyls. What about thst opening,I would unhook the thst and make sure flaps in housing fully open and test drive, u will be getting max air flo to cyls.Hoses from blower hsng to heater boxes on?? Did u actually set timing about 3 degrees slow and test,i'm not too sold on this dizzy.
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ran it on the highway again, no change, with the new oil pressure relief spring. I'm at my wits end.

I've checked the dizzy, and it advances just fine. I haven't been able to check if it's getting proper signal at WOT, but that's all I can think of at this point. Any other ideas that I -haven't- covered?

Oh, and it's a stock 69 pulley, as well.
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I've always checked the relief springs is to find a piece of steel tube which fits inside the spring. I set the tube in a vice with one end protruding the specified loaded length. Then use a hook made from shirt hanger wire to pull the spring flush to the pipe with a handheld scale (like fishermen use).
Like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's a little primitive, but better than nothing.
Good luck, Mondshine
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Cadaver
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that bus guy , ignorance is bliss, what you don't know can't hurt you, sigh.
my 1cent from the peanut gallery.

This post is GENERIC (not just for you, after all i cant touch your car or guess by clairvoyance)
it is a list of causes, that only you can to the tests and sort the results.
over heating IS:
1: motor is overheating
2: cooling failure
3: both. the cooling on a stock motor has a large excess capacity.
or

1: spark timed wrong.
2: carb running lean for a huge list of reasons.... (AFR meter it and find that fast, with out an AFR , its spark tip readings, etc.

car running lean can be a good carb, but air leaks make all carbs run lean.
so at the top of all lean reasons, add leak tests.

I dont know the full conditions of the overheat.
1: idle, racing in neutral, cruising on the flat or only on hills.

but here are some checks.

Your distributor. learn how yours works , then test it.
that dist is a vacuum only disty (fact)
and makes full advance , (correct carb match) at 90mm vacuum, 3 .2 inchs HG on the scale. Read the bentleys or OLDVOLKSHOME.
so the static time is at 0 , it is, some early 68s have SVDA yours dont 69

you then put the engine under full load, the special venturi nipple
is at 0 HG (hot idle) and advances to 3 inches, at full engine load.
that is how it works. and is not easy to test. (a load disty)
ONE WAY: (there are better,for sure)

I do it by testing the disty with a vacuum pump , checked to my bentleys table for my 205M disty. I call it a MIKE ,mil style.

then make sure the carb nipple orifice .032 is clear
it both tests work and the tube is good, then it will work for sure.
live testing takes special tools with this setup.


TIRES: post circumference?. of tire, (ask wife for seamstress meas. tape)

I hope your too hot tool works (GBE) and is not Chickenlittle.

if the cooling system is good (it has extra capacity)
check for no power pulley option (it cuts 11% from extra, and sucks)
if the oil pressure is normal ,is it? no 30mm pump and insane springs.
then your carb is too lean, tune the carb richer.
make sure the POWER jet is the correct size and clear.
The main jet must be run tad richer on all 69s they are lean new and are
smog jets. tune it for like 13.5: 1 AFR, do not run 14:1 or leaner.

btw , pinging causes overheating
and overheating caused pinging..... fact. (its a place never to go ever, think of a pit to fall into. and get the idea.. it's not a water car.)

So put the static timing to 0 (Mike and Tango , 205M/205T DISTYS)
then for sure it will never advance too far. it wont. How can it.

THEN ATTACK CARB TUNE:
log all jets sizes. do not ever trust stamps on old jets.
many of the web pages here , show trusting them , this is folly,!!!
MEASURE THEM. and win. ( done a few carbs i have, for 50 years)

this is a fact, not a guess. i pull many carbs , and many are drilled. about 1/2
after 40 years, the biggest Porsche site claims the same thing. any wonder.?
same guys that drill jets, drive any car. seems so, huh?

i ream them then when happy , i buy real ones ( I use reams never twist drills)
YMMV, and i hope you find the cause.


edit, i forgot my list , my 21 point list , not for you , EXACTLY, all VWs.


Carb too lean, or air leaks in the plenum induction path causing same.
Fan belt slipping (OMG Missing?), use an optical tachometer to find it your just set it to spec. at 3000 crank the fan spins 5400 RPM. (1.8:1 ratio)
Generator bearing , seizing causing the belt to slip at high speeds. Put in some new HQ bearings they cheap.
Fan loose on it's shaft (slipping) (or damage fan, use a mirror to see it) { one guy found a pre dog house fan , in a dog house motor. (too narrrow}
Fan plugged with debit or in housing. (examinations) (nesting animals?)
Main housing cooling Flaps missing/jammed, thermostat missing, Thermostat bad/jammed, it opens at 205F , does it? Stat Rod missing.
Make sure the rear engine deck lid has extra louvers (etc), if you motor is larger than stock "Punched OUT" or is 1970 and newer.
Make sure the engine rubbers (surround) are in place and not allowing hot air from exhaust area to suck in to the rear fan suction opening .
Some numb skull put a POWER PULLEY ON THE REAR of crankshaft. (yes, you decreased fan cooling ) ( if not drag racing $$$$ avoid this !)
Cylinder/head fins packed with dirt, leaves, gum wrapper,etc. "only inspections solve this simple failure"
Carb running way too lean, tune it (or repair it) so that AFR is near 13:1 "air fuel ratio"
Distributor is bad, (or the wrong one) and does not advance proper or advances, too far.(pinging is it?)
Even unheard detonation (pings) will cause over heating, learn to time a dizzy with a timing light at full advance and YOUR FUEL.
Distributor vacuum advance dead ( because the diaphragm is cracked) or is jammed. Some Dizzy's ( 68-70) are 100% vacuum advance.
Distributor advance weights stuck, missing, jammed or springs wrong or missing. (Gremlins, at work? Hacker)
Distributor clamp loose.
Excessive oil pressure such that , it bypasses the oil cooler.see next line for reason. Running a non stock huge oil pump?
(get rid of 30mm pump and those silly 30 pound relief springs. Yes, put it back to stock. Is the rear relief pressure valve stuck closed? (look) Buy an oil pressure gauge!
Driving with a dead cylinder can overheat the other 3, while flogging the poor motor to death ( this falls under overloading the motor)
Oil cooler missing or packed up inside or the outside fins. Never remove any stock oil coolers and drive , sure add one. but do not remove the stock cooler.
Missing cooling TINS. Many are critical to cooling. (most) Keep in mind the tins are for ALL CLIMATES.
See the TIN TEST by HOTVW 2012 (pulled 1 rear tin, and bingo overheat)
Carb ICE might not cause overheating (unless carb goes lean/iced up) but the tins for the air induction strove, do have a purpose. Consider that fact.
The Induction has an EXHAUST heat riser, make every effort to make sure it works ,and stays hot. (can cause cyclical, rich and lean) Don't tune carb until this is fixed.
That RISER takes periodic maintenance , that requires hard work to clean it, inside path, the heat tube inside with a small chain.
One guy , had his heat riser fill of with water and it froze to ice and expanded and this cracked the main induction tube. Causing massive lean and overheating.
Bad driving? (slow down or down shift ).
Running low test fuel (low octane rated) in a high compression engine (not stock?) or having the wrong distributor or having the distributor tuned wrong.!
The engine exhaust is blocked, somehow? pretty hard to do, but completes this list.
Someone bought a HOT ROD $$$ cooling fan housing and like most aftermarket parts are a POS. Those guide fins found inside. are not optional.
The heater tube pipes at the left and right side of the fan housing are missing? letting huge air leaks weaken the system.
Something far worse, than the simple things above, "engine damage"
end , my list. add more if you can....
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Last edited by Cadaver on Mon May 28, 2012 7:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpha-
One other thing to consider is the elevated engine speed at a given road speed due to your smaller diameter tires.
Remember, oil temp is directly related to RPM. The higher the rev's the higher the oil temp will be. To drive at 70 MPH actual, your engine will be turning much faster than with stock size tires.
Good luck, Mondshine
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Alpha_Maverick
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just got new OEM wheels (had another thread in the wheels section about that) and a new bypass spring from CB Performance. Great experience there. Tested the spring, and if I tested and calculated it right, it should open between 45 and 47psi. Perfection. Very HappyVery Happy I'll be installing it tomorrow, but I won't be testing the poor girl until I get my temp dipstick back from a coworker who "needed" it to take his '74 Westy on a road trip (I say "needed" because he was pretty desperate to use it, but once on the road, it "came on real quick so I unplugged it and kept driving"
*shrugs*
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