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Montehms 67 Prairie Square
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MonT3
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So today I finished up the front cowl. With the small craters filled I moved onto the hole in the window channel. I cut what I needed out and placed a donor piece in it's place. I think it came out pretty good. I ended up using my Dremel to grind down a corner but will go back and clean it further by hand. There's still a little material I can work down.
filling in those craters...
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End result...
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Window channel piece...
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all cleaned up...
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So onto the rear bumper bracket. After studying the corner piece I elected to remove the spot welds and remove the pitted/rotted area to the point where I can placed a thicker gauge (18 or 16 gauge) piece in its place. The rear area where on the aprons edge had it's spot welds removed. The challenge the bumper bracket has a couple of impressions I don't think I can recreate but will try to come up with something. Anyway, here are my pics of the area...
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Since it's pitted pretty good, I'm thinking to replace the while piece, even where it joins the apron piece and outer corner. Lots of spot welds were drilled out...
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Also separated the welds from the engine bay as well...
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And removed. Will be tracing this shape and test fit that piece in there. Then figure out hoe to get that impression in, may have to leave it out. Not sure. The bracket looks good though Very Happy
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I hope to have both sides ready to go by the Friday as it's my first day off. Cool
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonT3 wrote:

So onto the rear bumper bracket. After studying the corner piece I elected to remove the spot welds and remove the pitted/rotted area to the point where I can placed a thicker gauge (18 or 16 gauge) piece in its place. The rear area where on the aprons edge had it's spot welds removed. The challenge the bumper bracket has a couple of impressions I don't think I can recreate but will try to come up with something.

Also separated the welds from the engine bay as well...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

And removed. Will be tracing this shape and test fit that piece in there.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I hope to have both sides ready to go by the Friday as it's my first day off. Cool


You might try making that piece as 2 pieces. Cut the shape of the bigger piece first (from tracing it), then cut a 2nd one, and create the shape you need for it. Then just weld the 2 together. You'll probably have to seperate the bumper mount from the sheetmetal you've already removed, but that's just a matter of drilling some more spot welds. Wink That indented piece could even be made by using 2 or 3 smaller pieces welded together to create 1 piece. Very Happy
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Suesanctuary
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Monte!

I haven't been on the Samba in probably a month and and a half or there abouts, so I'm just starting to catch up on the threads I like to watch.

I must say, you are really getting to be quite proficient with your fabricating, fitment, welding, and grinding skills! Great Job!

Looking forward to the day when you're out "walking" your dinosaur again! Wink
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I still use this photo on my desktop now and again!
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Did you know:
New York was the first state to require license plates, back in 1901. In those days, you had to make your own. Sears even sold Kits! Massachusetts was the first state to issue them in 1903.
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MonT3
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suesanctuary wrote:
Hi Monte!

I haven't been on the Samba in probably a month and and a half or there abouts, so I'm just starting to catch up on the threads I like to watch.

I must say, you are really getting to be quite proficient with your fabricating, fitment, welding, and grinding skills! Great Job!

Looking forward to the day when you're out "walking" your dinosaur again! Wink

I still use this photo on my desktop now and again!

Thank you. I'm humbled by my pic being used as a background. I'm learning as I'm going and I'll be sure to get the dinosaur out once again!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bumper bracket areas were removed and new templates made. I decided to take an extra piece of metal and make the bends that on the piece and will be welding them on before tackling the rear apron. I'll be getting the actual brackets cleaned up before attaching them to these small panels. Getting interesting so more to follow...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the inner portion of the bumper brackets blasted and will prime them before getting them welded back on but I've been thinking of the best way to get them on as I don't want a lopsided bumper mounted on my square. Any suggestions?? Here are my panels with the bent portion welded on them. Bobnotch, thanks for the advise... Ok, my welds aren't pretty.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Ok, so I decided to remove the rear apron portion in two separate pieces. Look at those holes!!!!!
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Must have tapped sometime ago...
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Not sure what to do with this piece...
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And it all opened up...
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The thought of removing the lower portion with all the holes and pits are swirling in my head already. Not sure if that's needed or just cut and patch the pieces in which is looking inviting. Anyhow, got kids Volleyball game this evening and need to clean the place up. Tomorrow I'm thinking of welding in my bracket panels. Not sure if they'll have the mounts on or not. HELP!! Need varying perspectives on this one!!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonT3 wrote:
Ok, so I decided to remove the rear apron portion in two separate pieces. Look at those holes!!!!!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



You mean the big squinty cat eyes glaring at you, for disturbing it's quiet sleeping space? Wink


MonT3 wrote:

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At least they're Not pumped totally full of Bondo, looking like tons of "lil" worms trying to escape from an apple...... like I've seen multiple times on Bob's various project cars.


MonT3 wrote:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Bob will probably tell you to keep this piece, if it's not terminally ill with rust, and just work at getting it back into it's proper shape and using some hammer and dolly action to remove the dings and dents. As ones that are in decent shape and not too rusty, are hard to come by.


I'm sure he'll chime in here shortly, he's out in the shop working on a customer car at the moment.
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70 Fastback-AT w/ pop-outs


Did you know:
New York was the first state to require license plates, back in 1901. In those days, you had to make your own. Sears even sold Kits! Massachusetts was the first state to issue them in 1903.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonT3 wrote:
Got the inner portion of the bumper brackets blasted and will prime them before getting them welded back on but I've been thinking of the best way to get them on as I don't want a lopsided bumper mounted on my square. Any suggestions?? Here are my panels with the bent portion welded on them. Bobnotch, thanks for the advise... Ok, my welds aren't pretty.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Ok, so I decided to remove the rear apron portion in two separate pieces.
Not sure what to do with this piece...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

And it all opened up...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The thought of removing the lower portion with all the holes and pits are swirling in my head already. Not sure if that's needed or just cut and patch the pieces in which is looking inviting. Anyhow, got kids Volleyball game this evening and need to clean the place up. Tomorrow I'm thinking of welding in my bracket panels. Not sure if they'll have the mounts on or not. HELP!! Need varying perspectives on this one!!


I wouldn't worry about the welds on it, as a little grinding to smooth them out will fix it. Wink You can even putty them IF you want to. Twisted Evil

Can you shoot some self tapers thru the lower apron piece, and re-attach it? If so, I'd do that, as that'll help locate the bumper irons up and down. Then I'd put the "new" side pieces in place (reversing your spot welds). Then, I'd slip the rear bumper in place, and bolt the irons to the mounts, and use a torpedo level to get the bumper leveled out (hopefully the body is sitting level, if not, I'd level it too). If you were as anal about it as Clatter, you'd re-install the rear fenders too, so you could match the bumper ends to the indents in the fender (I might do that too, depending on how ambishious I felt Wink ). Then I'd tack the mounts to my new sections. Keep in mind that the lower part of the piece you cut out, is supposed to have a lip that extends out to the fender (behind the tire), so you'll need to add that too.

I'd hang onto that lower section though. a little hammer and dolly action will fix it right up, and it could be used on another project. Cool

Or, you could wait to do the mounts until you've got the body back on the pan, and use a torpedo level to set it in place (a little eye balling to go with the level Twisted Evil ). I'd probably have the new apron on at that time, along with hanging the rear fenders too, but that's entirely up to you.

As for the new "drain holes", you can either cut out the sections, use a donor piece, or go with the metal 2 metal stuff Clatter is using (needs to be blasted first). Or, you could just seal them in epoxy, and water shouldn't sit there. Wink Personally, I'd replace them as patches, and weld them in from the top (inside the duct) side. That way you have minimal grinding to do. Very Happy
I hope this helps.

P.S. Monte, you've got my phone number if you need a little better idea of what I'm trying to convey here. Just remember, I'm on ESDT time. Wink
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64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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MonT3
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I started on the apron. Using my donor piece, I separated the top from the bottom as I couldn't get to a dings towards the center as well as remove that piece on the backend. That piece of the air flow looks to have been welded on there as a continuous rolled seam or something, unlike a spot weld. I can barely make out what looks like a seam running the length of the apron from the inside. Anyhow, I got the dings out so the top portion is done. Just need to cut that top portion off and trim to size. The center piece in the pic which was the original top piece of the apron is being set aside for now...
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Tops done...Now unto the bottom piece which is more challenging. Here are my two candidates. The top from the donor and bottom from the car. Which to use or maybe both as in cutting up one to path the crappy part on the other. IDK... I'll go hammer on it a bit and see what it looks like afterwards...
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Taking suggestions...

As for the bottom of the airflow piece. I've thought about patching it up as well as getting the whole bottom portion from a donor. Just going to cost me time - time spent on removal of the donor and welding that in and time spent patching. hmmm I think I'll try to the patching and see what comes of it. Smile Bobnotch thanks for the guidance above. This school session here has been very educational to say the least.

.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure you don't want to just find another less-rusty car to start with?
Laughing Laughing

OK, sorry, that was just mean...
NOT funny, right? Evil or Very Mad


I was told by an old-timer that you want to work from the inside out.

So, you would be fixing the rust holes in the bottom of the ductwork first.
Then, the evil cat-eye piece.
Probably with just cut patches, welded in from above like Bob said.

The horizontal seam running the length between the upper and lower rear apron pieces is indeed a continuous weld.
It must have been done by some automated process, or a wide resistance-welding set-up of some kind,
As it is quite unlike the boogery gas welds used elsewhere on the car.
The good thing here is, that after you get the floor of the rear ductwork straightened out, this edge will give you a reference point to work with for the rest of the rear pieces of the whole car.

So, after the rear ductwork and horizontal seam are all straightened out,
Then you might go for sheet-metal-screwing the upper rear apron part on - exactly as you can get it.

Then, you will take the lower part and set it in your lap, and tap tap tap. You might also fab up a home-made 'brake' with a 2x4 or a piece of pipe, maybe some clamps and a vise.
This all to get the lower apron's profile correct - from the side view.
You would likely do this before the tap tap part, actually...
One thing I did was to make a cardboard template of the area how it was supposed to be in the end, like it was new.
Not easy, because I have still never in real life seen a rear apron that wasn't bent.
If you look at the area of the rear fender where it mounts to the apron, it (almost) gives you a perfect outline of that the apron side profile was when new.
So you make a cardboard template, and bend and hammer until you get the lower apron back to correct all the way across, test-fitting it to get it to line up and all.
(I can send you a copy of my cardboard template if you don't have anything to make one from.)

After you have the rear apron all as straight as you are going to get it, you could sheet-metal screw it in place for test-fits,
because you would likely want both apron pieces out of the way for the installation of the lower side panels that your bumper mounts attach to.
It's nice that you have the apron out of the way to get the panels on.
Get the rust repair to all the walls done under there with the apron off, but leave the actual bumper mounts for later.
Then,
sheet-metal screw the apron parts on, hang the rear fenders and the hatch.
Adjust everything as needed to get all of the gaps right.
Assemble the rear bumper onto it's brackets (they are straight, right? Time to order some stainless bumpers and source straight brackets?), and test-fit.
I would even go so far as to bolt the brackets to the bumper mounts, m'self.
Level and straighten out the rear bumper until it's perfect; you already learned what happens if you don't mock-up these things 100%
You could get a couple of good plug-welds in, then remove the rear bumper and brackets to properly weld the rest of the mount to the side walls.
Then, you would be able to final-weld the apron parts on.... And run away from the car forever! Laughing

I went through the grief of completely removing/drilling free a whole rear apron,
Only to decide that the one on the car was straighter-enough to just leave in place and work it right there.
There is really an advantage to having the apron sitting there in your lap to work with, or on the bench.
Also cool that you went that far in, and have the apron out of the way of your rear bumper mount area repairs.

So, to summarize:
1.fix rust pits in rear cooling duct.
2.get rear apron long horizontal weld strip area on car perfect
3.repair rear bumper mount bracket mount side wall area
4.straighten out and sheet-metal-screw in place rear apron parts
5.mockup rear bumper, hatch, and fenders
6.weld in rear bumper mounts
7.tack apron in place
8.dis-assemble mock-up for final weld of everything


Sound like a game plan?
Or at least some food for thought?
Yes, I have been staring at these parts lately for way, way too long!

Hope this helps,
Steve
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Monte
On vacation but still watching, i would try and get a donor for the drain hole piece, looking at what you've done so far i'm sure you are capable of repairing it but a donor would be much easier.
Its a shame vw never figured out how to paint inside the air ducting, as every car i have seen is rusty in there. Yours is particularly bad though.
Good luck with it
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Steve said. Wink He's on the right track. Like I said above, you have several options on how to fix it, it really just depends on how YOU want to go about it. I mean we can arm chair quarterback as good as the next guy, but in the end you're the guy doing all of the work. Shocked I'd look at what Steve said, and probably go from there. You might change a few things as you go too, but in the end you'll get there.

Sorry for the short answer, but I'm working off my laptop, as I lost power in last nights storm. Shocked
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64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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MonT3
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the great advice on this area guys. very good insight. If you recall earlier in my posts I pulled the rear apron off that rear carcass.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

That piece is the donor. So after tapping and stepping (yes, I stepped on it when I removed it front the carcass and today I stepped on it some more) and hammering on it. I'm getting it sorted out. Since it's loose and placing on my lap wasn't getting anywhere with it, I took the dolly and placed it in a vice and worked the area. replaced the dolly with a different one and worked it, and so on. I working the shape of it as it had creases but I've managed to work them out even though I think there's a little remnant of where it was. BUT I'm not done.! Twisted Evil I'm going to hit some pawn shops and pick up some sacrificial chisels to grind down into little dollys/taps to get inside the ovals in the apron. Here's where I'm at the right now. I raged on it a bit...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Gotta figure out how to straighten the lower edge.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Clatter, I need to re-read your post and digest it. I think I'm following a bit but am sorting it out as I go. I too haven't seen a unmolested apron in person so i have no reference. Those center humps have me a confused as to their true shape. I've only seen pics of them. But the edges as you mentioned are a good reference and will use them to line it up to see how far off I may be.

260kmn, The replacement would be sweet but I'm thinking on tapping around in there with a scraper and see the extent of pits I have. If I can patch it all up, I may go that route as I have plenty of material laying around. Raptor liner will get sprayed in there fairly thick

Bobnotch, I'm pretty happy with my progress thus far. The replacement lower piece was my choice to go with and thought I might need to patch it bit after beating on it for a couple of hours I don't think a patching on it will be needed.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonT3 wrote:
Thanks for the great advice on this area guys. very good insight.
That piece is the donor. So after tapping and stepping (yes, I stepped on it when I removed it front the carcass and today I stepped on it some more) and hammering on it. I'm getting it sorted out. Since it's loose and placing on my lap wasn't getting anywhere with it, I took the dolly and placed it in a vice and worked the area. replaced the dolly with a different one and worked it, and so on. I working the shape of it as it had creases but I've managed to work them out even though I think there's a little remnant of where it was. BUT I'm not done.! Twisted Evil I'm going to hit some pawn shops and pick up some sacrificial chisels to grind down into little dollys/taps to get inside the ovals in the apron. Here's where I'm at the right now. I raged on it a bit...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Gotta figure out how to straighten the lower edge.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Monte, keep in mind that the lower part where the "ovals" are does have a light bend in it. Shocked It's part of it's normal shape (the light "kick out" part about 1/2 way up the oval). Look thru the pics of KTPhil's Fastback, as his rear apron area is almost perfect (ISP did a great job straightening his out). You can just see parts of it in your first photo (that I left out), and in your 2nd pic where you took the long bend out of it. Just a heads up, as I did that mistake myself thinking it was supposed to be perfectly straight, only to realize that it's not, it's actually supposed to have a slight kick in it. Shocked I did that when I replaced the rear apron on my 71 Notch. I ended having to put the kick back in Embarassed , as that helps set up the curve of the lower portion of the apron. You can use the upper part to give you an idea of how much curve there's supposed to be in it, as both top and bottom follow the same shapes. Very Happy

Just so you know, that 2nd pic (the 1st I quoted) was looking pretty damn close. Also, when you have attached on the car, you can do some final tweaking to it, to get the curves right.

In addition, on the later cars, the middle section is spot welded in place, not a long continuous weld, as it has a lip in the duct part for it to be spot welded. Shocked
I hope this helps.
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't flattened the lower piece as the pics don't really show the shape of it. The curve's there and have been using the other for reference. Especially the two center humps. They look really nice compared to the one I'm working with. I'll study KTPhils pics. Thanks for the reference.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a couple of pics from my Notch. Granted that entire rear apron section came from a Square, I beat and banged on it in1 piece, including removing the finger indent that Squares and Fasty's have, and it's not too bad. Wink
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

While not "perfect", it's pretty close, and was installed as 1 piece (rather than 2 like your doing). Wink
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22358
Location: Kimball, Mi
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonT3 wrote:
I haven't flattened the lower piece as the pics don't really show the shape of it. The curve's there and have been using the other for reference. Especially the two center humps. They look really nice compared to the one I'm working with. I'll study KTPhils pics. Thanks for the reference.


And I guess I should show you some pics of what I was starting with (note this WAS my replacement piece shown finished in the previous post Shocked ).
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And what I was replacing. Note the "worms" Sue was talking about, and NO, I didn't do that, it was done before I bought the car. Shocked
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Which is why I say that anything can be fixed. The key is to have some "clean" solid metal to work with. Shocked Very Happy
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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MonT3
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Joined: January 07, 2012
Posts: 1988
Location: South Dakota
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, that piece looks mangled and not as bad as mine was. I just need to straighten out the small lip in the underside then look at the re-attach process. Going to be picking up a new tank of gas for the welder tomorrow then off to work. Fill up some holes and work a patch. Hopefully I can have the rear piece ready for this weekend.
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MonT3
67 Squareback
64 Squareback
63 Squareback
Engine rebuild
Trailer rebuild
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22358
Location: Kimball, Mi
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MonT3 wrote:
Wow, that piece looks mangled and not as bad as mine was. I just need to straighten out the small lip in the underside then look at the re-attach process.


Yes, it was mangled, and Russ couldn't believe I wanted it, Shocked but when I saw the "worms" coming out of my existing apron, and knew I needed something that hadn't been messed with. Shocked That "mangled" apron came off a 69 Square, that Alan in north western Minnesota got the rest of the car off Russ for parts (to fix his Notch). I just took a 4.5 inch Dewalt angle grinder with a 6 inch Metabo blade, and cut it off the car. Wink

Then, over the winter, I beat it into shape, before welding it on. Cool As you can see, the lower part is folded upon itself, but I moved the metal out, and re-shaped the middle humps pretty close to what they should look like. Note, I had tried straightening out the lower kick part, that I later found needed to be in there, which is why the left side doesn't quite match the right side in the 1st set of pics I posted (I had to put that kick back in there Embarassed ).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MonT3
Samba Member


Joined: January 07, 2012
Posts: 1988
Location: South Dakota
MonT3 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today my main focus was to close up the lower portion of the rear of the shell so I can start my re-assembly of the rear apron. the center piece was pretty pitted on both sides so trying to close that area up was a pain. So I cut it out and replaced it with a fresh piece of metal. Tomorrow is a bog clean-up day. I filled in holes here and there. I got tired of being on my back trying to work so I to wedged in a 4x4 which fit in the opening for the ash tray. From there, I was able to deal with the underside.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Have some straightening out to do...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

And some grinding...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I do have one question on the front though. I have two sets of hoes for the license plate. I take it the lower set if the correct ones? I know, stupid question as I suspect the lower ones are the plate mounting holes. I also have a few spots where it's flashing too.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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MonT3
67 Squareback
64 Squareback
63 Squareback
Engine rebuild
Trailer rebuild
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