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bugguy076
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:34 am Post subject: 1300 Extra Mileage Motor |
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I had eluded to building a 1300 milage engine in the $5.00 gal. gas topic a while ago. I now have it installed and testing it.
It was built form the leftover parts I had on hand. I did buy some parts to complete engine. About $200 total.
H-case with deep sump added, case savers added, decked to raise comp.
CB performance 69 C/W crank
stock rods
All rotating parts balanced-8.1 compression
FK-65 cam-.342 lift at cam-280 running duration, added two oil relief grooves into cam gear. An old Gene Berg trick.
26mm small hole oil pump
stock push rods shortened 3/16"
stock 1.1 rockers w/lash caps
dual port heads 35x32 polished not ported, std. valve job just contoured ss.valves for smoothness. Heads flycut .080 for comp.
Kadron carbs- 130 mains
009 dis. w/ electronic ignition
1500 fan housing w/ thinner fan and 12v altenator
Exhaust is a Empi 3300 extractor
I am running on regular fuel
Tranny is a 3.87 R/P swing axle w/ .093 fourth gear. Using synthetic oil
37mpg in a real world test. About the same amount of highway and side roads. Even some city driving.
Engine dosen't have the torque of a stock 1600. but it will out run one easy.
With some more tuning and miles on it, I'm sure I can improve it to 40mpg. Should not take long to recoup my investment. And a fun experiment.
Last edited by bugguy076 on Wed May 02, 2012 7:17 am; edited 6 times in total |
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Boolean
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012
Posts: 1712
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| Great! I'm sure there are more gains to be made. |
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dawie
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2008
Posts: 217
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:43 am Post subject: |
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That's nice!
If you mod the Kadrons for vacuum ports, then SVDA is the way to go! |
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bugguy076
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| If I do add vac. ports, I will use a stock dizzy. If you spend a lot to build a milage engine, you will never save enough in fuel to come out ahead. |
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: |
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Absolutely add a vacuum advance distributor. You are almost at where Hot VW's was on their fuel mileage. I'd run synthetic motor oil as well. How is the rest of your vehicle? Tires, pressure, alignment, wheel bearings, brakes.
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| Mitey62 wrote: |
| Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
| RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum.  |
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Ghia Nut
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2003
Posts: 1565
Location: B'ham Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:30 am Post subject: |
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you doing anything for weight?
I thought sp motors got better mileage
_________________
'59 typ1 rajay turbo
'72 Ghia rajay 1641 dual 36DRLAs, 1 3/8" SS merged header and fat boy
78" GL Vert with ej22t swap
This will likely change tomorrow to something else. |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| DarthWeber wrote: |
| Absolutely add a vacuum advance distributor. |
Yes! Go with both vacuum and centrifugal advance!
Vacuum advance compensates for changes in load. An SVDA is better than a 009 on fuel mileage (provided the engine is not a radical design.) This is because vacuum advance compensates for changes in load and mechanical advance only compensates for changes in speed. So unless your plan to drive constantly at full throttle (high load) then vacuum advance, in combination with mechanical advance, will help efficiency.
Even better than just slapping in a SVDA is to tune the distributor advance curves to your engine. On an SVDA you do this by adjusting the total advance to where you get the most torque and power without pinging at any RPM/Load level, and then adjust it back a couple degrees to prevent pinging. The next level would be to bend and/or changing the springs, tabs and/or weights in the centrifugal advance mechanism. You do this to reflect the timing curve of the engine in relation with RPM. Of course you will need to determine your engines advance curves by some practical tests. As far as adjusting the vacuum advance for load sensing, I only know of Mallory Unilite's as distributors you can adjust the vacuum advance on. Of course programable digital ignition would be even more accurate.
Check out this page: http://www.gofastforless.com/ignition/advance.htm
Here is another one:http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5927285
_________________
If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7217
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: 1300 Extra Mileage Motor |
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| bugguy076 wrote: |
I had eluded to building a 1300 milage engine in the $5.00 gal. gas topic a while ago. I now have it installed and testing it.
It was built form the leftover parts I had on hand. I did buy some parts to complete engine. About $200 total.
H-case with deep sump added, case savers added, decked to raise comp.
CB performance 69 C/W crank
stock rods
All rotating parts balanced-8.1 compression
FK-65 cam-.342 lift at cam-280 running duration
stock push rods shortened 3/16"
stock 1.1 rockers w/lash caps
dual port heads 35x32 polished not ported, std. valve job just contoured ss.valves for smoothness. Heads flycut .080 for comp.
Kadron carbs- 130 mains
009 dis. w/ electronic ignition
Exhaust is a Empi 3300 extractor
I am running on regular fuel
Tranny is a 3.87 R/P swing axle w/ .093 fourth gear. Using synthetic oil
37mpg in a real world test. About the same amount of highway and side roads. Even some city driving.
Engine dosen't have the torque of a stock 1600. but it will out run one easy.
With some more tuning and miles on it, I'm sure I can improve it to 40mpg. Should not take long to recoup my investment. And a fun experiment. |
37 mpg. ..... Per speedometer or per GPS ?
T |
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bugguy076
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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The car is a 1967 standard beetle, drum brakes, steel wheels, and all. Tires are 155x80x15 front and 205x65x15 rear. Pressures are 28 front and 32 rear. The only mods to car is a 4" norrowed front end and is lowered about 4" in front.The rear is age sagged, so it sets level.
I carry a spare tire and a 20lbs. bag of tools and spare parts. Plus a 230lbs. driver. Like I said, a real world test.
My speedometer is off 8%, and was taken in to account when mileage was calculated. I have to run at 70mph on the speedo to be going 65mph. I am sure it is off less at lower speeds, but used 8% overall.
I don't own a GPS, or I would use it. |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7217
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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OK.
If the 8% is deducted already, those are good numbers from that combo.
T |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| hmm my 2028&2332 get in the 35 range(gps) and are very fun to drive,and that was with a high sitten baja.it has old style frount fenders on it now& a bit lower.I have a beam to finish & lower it a good bit farther.I can feal the diff with just the air scooping baja fenders off the front of it.still have to widen the already wider rear full size fenders, but there just isant enough time to get everything done befor I die.unless it is true that you cant die till everything is finished&in order.if so Im liven longer than cher&ozzy!!!! combined!!! keep up the good work |
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bugguy076
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| I get around the advance problems of the 009 by streching the springs so it is all in at 1800rpm. Right now the engine is running with 32 deg. full advance with no problems. The extra duraton in the cam helps with this. |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| bugguy076 wrote: |
| I get around the advance problems of the 009 by streching the springs so it is all in at 1800rpm. Right now the engine is running with 32 deg. full advance with no problems. The extra duraton in the cam helps with this. |
You can't get around load advance problems on a 009 by changing the springs. That's like saying you get around a carburetor that goes lean at high RPM by adding a fuel line from the pump directly right strait into the carburetor throat.
Vacuum advance on an SVDA does not have anything to do with RPM at all! It is strickly the load sensing part of the equation. (Only on 28 and 30 PICT's the vacuum signal is mixed with an RPM signal.) 009's cannot sense load at all so changing or streaching the springs will not cut it. If you do that then yes, there will be times that the timing might be right. Let's say you have them streched out far enough that you have good timing at 2/3 throttle. At full throttle it will be too advanced. At 1/3 throttle it will be too retarded. So unless you don't change your throttle position when you drive you are loosing efficiency and possibly engine life.
A correctly set up 009 should only be adjusted for dead on timing at full throttle. At any part throttle position a 009 is supposed to be too retarded, and hence, innefficient. That's because it has no load sensing and it is better to be too retarded than too advanced. But better still is timing that is dead on under all loads.
_________________
If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine?
Last edited by Juanito84 on Wed May 02, 2012 4:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sgmalt46
Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2005
Posts: 1296
Location: south san francisco
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| hmm my 2028&2332 get in the 35 range(gps) and are very fun to drive,and that was with a high sitten baja.it has old style frount fenders on it now& a bit lower.I have a beam to finish & lower it a good bit farther.I can feal the diff with just the air scooping baja fenders off the front of it.still have to widen the already wider rear full size fenders, but there just isant enough time to get everything done befor I die.unless it is true that you cant die till everything is finished&in order.if so Im liven longer than cher&ozzy!!!! combined!!! keep up the good work |
yes a 2 liter motor can give that kind of mileage if you drive like grandma. i had a 2276 years ago that got sweet mileage if you drove it for mileage. but it was hard to do! after a tussle with a mustang or camaro toss that 35 mph out the window! i had a 69 chevelle that got 25 going 55 but would burn 1/4 tank of gas in one race. i like the 1300 idea. i'm going to build a 1300 stroker so you got the best of both worlds. good power and good mileage no matter how you drive . that's how the jap's do it . small bore long stroke. i had a honda 350 dual sport motor cycle.t hat got good mileage no matter how you rode it . about 75? now i have a ktm 625 smc that i can get 55 mpg if i go easy!? not easy to do. i got as low as 25 riding like a moron. so the key is real world mileage and driving habits? to sum up i like motors that give good mileage no matter how there driven! that is the key! can you get 35mpg every day with a 2332? not me! i cant' drive like granny!
Last edited by sgmalt46 on Tue May 01, 2012 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| bugguy076 wrote: |
| I get around the advance problems of the 009 by streching the springs so it is all in at 1800rpm. Right now the engine is running with 32 deg. full advance with no problems. The extra duraton in the cam helps with this. |
you need to do some weight work too and let the unweighter addvamce the dist till thesprund weight is starting to do it,s thing so there isant a flat spot in the curve, and you may to tighten up your spring again. |
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DarthWeber
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| sgmalt46 wrote: |
| i like the 1300 idea. i'm going to build a 1300 stroker so you got the best of both worlds. good power and good mileage no matter how you drive . that's how the jap's do it . small bore long stroke. |
Exactly what Jon Karcey did back in the 80's. 77 x 76mm, 1415cc, 50+ mpg.
_________________
| Mitey62 wrote: |
| Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
| RockCrusher wrote: |
| JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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TomSimon
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2004
Posts: 751
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Congratulations, sounds like fun!
I play with this stuff, as well. A couple of tips I'll share that will help you in chasing MPG's...
I've found that instrumentation is key, $250 would go along way with your set up:
-GPS (to help you better track your MPH and distance traveled)
-Vacuum gauge (to help you drive better for MPG's)
-O2 sensor (to help you better tune those Kads close to optimal) build for $25
-VDO cylinder head temp gauge (to help you push it o the limit, without melting it down) about $100
You can pick up a small screen GPS for less than $80 these days
I bought and used an old fashioned vacuum gauge for $25 on ebay, plumbed and mounted permanently to my dash. It gives instant feed back with respect to demand versus throttle plate angle/manifold vacuum. It helps 'tighten up' the loose nut behind the wheel. I found about 4% improvement using a vac gauge alone. You drive like a grandma, but not always.
Build a narrow band O2 sensor for about $35. You'll be ahead if you can tune those kads as lean as possible, without overheating the engine. I built one years ago using a cheap Radioshack credit-card sized volt-ohm meter, and a $18 single wire Bosch O2 sensor. The magic number is right around .55 volts for performance under full load. You'd have to play with jetting versus plug reading versus cyl head temp for MPGs
My fuel miezer is a 3-cyl Metro, that has OBDII and I use something called a "Scan gauge II" that reads instant MPG, allows me to monitor incoming air temp, water temp, ignition advance, etc. I still have the old fashioned vac gauge, and read instant mpgs on the scan gauge. They really tell the tale, confirmed by my fuel mileage calculations with every tankfull. My original experiments with the old fashioned vacuum gauge gained me a lot of mpg by itself, helped my right foot do the right thing. On a carbureted engine, optimal jetting (which will be close to overheating) will be key, hence the VDO cyl head temp gauge I recommend. |
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bugguy076
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:53 am Post subject: |
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I like the idea of stroking a small displacement engine. You can gain back low end torque. If I had the parts, I would have built it this way.
I think most get the idea of what I was tring to achieve. I built a reliable engine at a low cost. I can recoup what I spent in a short time.
I increased the mileage by at least 10mpg over the stock 1600 that was in the car.
While the low end torque suffered a little from the smaller cc's, the overall way the car drives is about the same. And it is snappy, too. At higher rpm's this 1300 out performs the 1600. Nice to have that extra kick in the pants when jumping on the expressway.
I don't think there is a perfect combination. Just many ways to get about the same results.
This was an experiment to see if I could improve my gas mileage. And I did that without spending much. |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7217
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| bugguy076 wrote: |
I don't think there is a perfect combination. Just many ways to get about the same results.
This was an experiment to see if I could improve my gas mileage. And I did that without spending much. |
Aint that a fact. and I do think that you got good results from your investment.
If you REALLY want to chase mileage without loosing too much power, one of the best cams on the market today is the CB 2280.
I have several of my 1600 std plus engine customers that makes 16 km/l on regular highway cruises. Everyday driving to&from work, grocery stops, haulinītrailers to the dump site etc they get 11,5 - 12,5 km/l.
I have one customer with a 72 hp 1600 std plus - Mexican fuel injection with a KFZ ECU. He can get 20 km/l on cruise and aveages about 15 in daily commute. So it is possible.
Personally I would like to explore tha capabilities on a 1200 turbo engine, built in an unorthodoks way. I know the turbo will cost me a little in efficiency. The question is how much.
T |
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bugguy076
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2007
Posts: 1068
Location: Dover, PA.
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:13 am Post subject: |
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OK. I screwed up. When I installed the 1300 in the car I replaced the old blue coil with a new blue coil. seemed like a good idea.
The engine was hard to start all along. I thought I was flooding it by touching the pedal before cranking.
This morning, I wanted to start her up. Nothing. Dead as a hammer. Checked for spark. None. Changed to old coil. Fires right off, every time.
I can already tell the engine runs much better.
I'm going to recheck the mileage. I think it should improve some with a coil that is working properly.
Before someone asks, Yes, it was wired correctly. Just a bad coil from the start. |
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