Rare Unique and Oddball stock ignition distributors

tasb · Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:11 pm Post subject:

Near the top of page 3 there is a Brazilian high performnance mechanical advance distributor featured. It was manufactured by a firm named Resolit. It has an aluminum badge with a painted logo and the painted logo rubs off easily. This 36 hp beetle distributor apppears to be of a related manufacture. But its the only one I have ever seen like it. The badge has similar quality to the usual Bosch badges.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This badge has Bosch on it but it has a number of features that clue me in to the fact that it is related to if not made by Resolit.

The plastic vent cap on this distributor is the same as those found on the mechanical advance Resolit distributors. I've only seen these on the Resolit distributors. It's hard to make out in the pic but there is a flat area on the distributor shaft that also has a lubrication hole for engine oil to lubricate the distributor bearings. This too is a feature I've only seen on Resolit distributors. If anyone has any information on the relationship between Bosch and Brazilian manufactured parts please chime in. This distributor has a date stamp of 427 = July 1964.

While the quality of the parts in the mechanical Resolits left something to be desired in a couple of cases I find the internal part on this distributor to be equal to those of Bosch German and indeed some of the components on the inside may be German. The points plate has "U S Patent Pending" stamped in it. It is identical to the Bosch Service Department replacement distributor plates. It does not have a provision for the eccentric screw for adjusting the dog leg style points.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

tasb · Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:14 pm Post subject:

Here is an oddball distributor it's 0 231 147 002. There are only two Bosch distributors used by VW for their cars with the middle 147 designation.

The other is a type III from 1965 VW # 311 905 205 D ( 0 231 147 006 ). This distributor then, is likely its replacement over the dealership service department counter. There has been some discussion of distributors of this vintage having a few degrees of retard on the #3 distributor cam lobe to help keep cylinder # 3 a little cooler. I put this distributor on the Sun Machine and it does not have any retard that is apparent. Since it's likely a type III distributor and does not have the issue with the oil cooler interferring with cooling air on # 3 cylinder perhaps this explains the lack of the retard. It may also explain why these distributor have the 147 middle part number designation as they appear to be identical to the other 111 (137) series distributors of the same time period in all other respects.

_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

tasb · Posted: Mon May 06, 2013 9:58 pm Post subject:

Looks like your typical 36 hp beetle distributor but there are some significant clues that this is not your average early beetle distributor. This distributor managed to find its way into my collection rather quietly. I noticed first off that it did not have the typical casting that is sometimes tapped for a lubricator- like the Goliath distributor featured earlier. It also had the screened vent cap. The third clue was that the vacuum can nipple was separate from the rest of the housing which meant at least the vacuum can was very early. It was a pretty rusty example and the badge looked like it was damaged beyond any chance of getting a good reading. I thought it might be another BR 2 or 3.

After I got it home I discovered that the badge had been covered in an old layer of grey or silver paint. Once cleaned up a very nice badge appeared. The date stamp also appeared as 7K. This translated to July of 1954. According to Progressive Refinements this would be the first month for the VJU 4 BR 8 production and the first 36 hp engines.

This distributor sports the correct large diameter yellow wire condenser and a very early German Bosch distributor cap. This one does not have any markings on its exterior. It does have the Bosch logo and the earliest Bosch part numbering system markings on the interior.

It also has the early dog leg Bosch points installed. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the vacuum can still functions perfectly after running it on my Sun distributor tester. Happy Day!
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

tasb · Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 3:10 am Post subject:

A question has come up about badges on these early Bosch distributors.

It appears that Bosch dropped the black and silver badge in late 1955 through 1956 and then re-introduced them late in 1956 . during that time an anodized 'non shiny" badge was used.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

tasb · Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 5:37 pm Post subject:

A customer sent me this distributor for restoration the other day. It turns out to be rather unique. Looks like an early bus distributor after first cleaning. The Florida salt air has worked its chemistry on the badge and wire cap clips but the rest of the distributor cleaned up pretty nice

Turns out it is a very late 383 distributor. It has a date stamp of October 1956. It probably came on a Porsche with this late of a date. The housing has all the typical signs of a later cast iron distributor. It has the oil fixture casting, and the slotted instead of screened vent cap- both atypical of 383 production. The badge is the later design and is anodized instead of the painted version which is correct for late 1956. I have never seen a 383 distributor with this later badge design. It sports the wire clip cap holders instead of the spring steel which are also correct for the year.

The badge reads VE(R) 4 BRS 383. This number designation is slightly different than the usual VE 4 BRS 383. The first R indicates that it originally came with a rotor with radio noise suppressing resistor installed. You will find a pic below featuring this early resistor.

The cap is also very interesting. It has the notch for clearance of the coil wire through bolt but it is short having the same height and contact distance as the more typical flat top distributor caps that it interchanges with. This cap is an original Bosch but the only Bosch making is a small logo on the inside of the cap. I featured a similar cap a few posts above this one.

Here is the restored distributor. I have temporarily shaded in the badge in order to show some of its features.

Not quite done yet! Apparently this distributor was rebuilt in June 1962 =6T. The firm that rebuilt it is none other than Garbe-Lahmeyer featured throughout this thread. You can see the GL stamping just left of the 6T.

_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

tasb · Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:39 pm Post subject:

It's been awhile since something unusual has crossed over the workbench...

About a year ago I purchase a NOS vacuum can off of ebay that was advertised as being for the 1960 Ghia according to the plain white box the part was in. When the can arrived I knew there had been a mistake. The vacuum can looked like this:

The seller was kind enough to refund my money after I returned the part.

I have never seen an early VW vacuum can that looked anything like it. The curvature of the mounting surface of the can was no where close to fitting the big cap diameter of the 1960 ZV/PAU 4 R 1. The 36 hp beetle vacuum can could not be used on this distributor since it was vacuum advance only whereas the beetle distributor for 1960 was both mechanical and vacuum advance.

This week an odd distributor arrived at the shop. It too was advertised as for 1960 Ghia. Note the vacuum can:

Turns out there were actually two Ghia only distributors used in 1960. The first is this one used from August 1959 according to documentation. It is the ZV/JUR 4 R 1. Then from late January 1960 until July 1960 the ZV/PAU 4 R 1 was in use. The latter looks a lot like the big cap 40 hp distributors and is featured earlier in this thread.

There are some interesting features of the ZV/JUR 4 R 1 besides the very unique vacuum can. I can no longer locate the seller of that NOS can I returned... The condenser has a clamp that is identical to those used on the BR 25/ 010's which began production on the bus also in 1960. The uniqueness is that on this distributor the clamp is riveted to the housing instead of being attached with screws.

The housing is the small diameter like the mechanical advance distributors of the time, which is why the vacuum can is unique. The cap and rotor are the same as those used on the VJ 4 BR 8 which is the 36 hp bus distributor used through 1959. The points are also unique only to this distributor.

The date stamp is 6Q which translates to June 1959 - a couple of months earlier than documentation suggested it was installed as stock.

Here is a comparison of the ZV/PAU 4 R1 on the left used January to July 1960 and the ZV/JUR 4 R 1 used from June or August 1959 until January 1960 on the right.

This distributor ZV/JUR 4 R 1 and used for only 4 months strictly for Ghia's; represents VW's first use of the vacuum only advance distributor.

Note that the Bosch badge is smaller than just about any badge I have ever seen. There is scant little room on this cast iron small diameter vacuum advance only distributor for a badge.

I suspect that this distributor was tested on the Ghia because of its relatively low production numbers and that VW liked the performance of the vacuum only distributor but had some issues with the design of this distributor and so went with the big cap design found later. The mounting of the condenser lead wire is a bit awkward.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

tasb · Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:57 am Post subject:

if you go back to page 2 of this thread you will see a discussion of the ZV/PAU 4 R 1. At that time I was overlooking the fact that there was also a ZV/JUR 4 R 1 and we were just referring to these distributors as R 1's.

Based upon age, design of distributor housing and vacuum can I am theorizing that until January 1960 the Ghia had the 28 PCI carburetor which matches the ZV/JUR 4 R 1 production and after that when the ZV/PAU 4 R 1 came out the carburetor was switched to the 28 PICT Solex.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

glutamodo · Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:57 pm Post subject:

I've tried to look that up before, so I could put it on my carb/distributor charts, but I never find a mention of a 28PICT before June 1 1960, and that was on the Transporter. This chart shows a 28PCI with the ZVPAU4R1:

dre' · Samba Member Joined: July 26, 2005 Posts: 3

So time for timing! Here's what I got: A 78 Campmobile 2.0 liter with an 034 Bosch distributor, Pertronix ignition and the flame thrower to boot. So Bentley and all other mechanics books say timing should be set near or around 7.5 BTDC. Cool, alright i get that. Yet understand that my engine is not original to the van. Just got rebuilt from Suburban Engine Exchange(extremely recommend) and started off the timing set a 7.5 BTDC. Had no power or get up and go. So I then with vacuum hose plugged and taken off of the canister of the distributor i got the RPM's up to 3200-3400 with a Acutron Tach Reader and Retard my timing to approximately 12-13 BTDC at an ideal of 950. Question #1: Does that sound right to you folks? I mean does anyone out there have there timing either much greater or lessor from the standered timing suggestion? Question #2: I have a Bosch distributor with the numbers 113 905 205 AL as a back up one with Pertonix as well. Would this distributor be better worse to use?

busdaddy

dre' · Samba Member Joined: July 26, 2005 Posts: 3

Thanks for the reply BD!

tasb · Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:07 pm Post subject: Red Point Bosch Distributors

According to Progressive Refinements Bosch made an improvement in the design of the springs that return the centrifical weights to their resting position. Rather than reassigning a new number to the distributors, Bosch decided to simply place a dot of red paint on the distributor to designate that these distributors have this upgrade. The mark was placed on the VJU 4 BR 3 starting in April 1954 and then continued into at least July of 1954 which began the production of the VJU 4 BR 8. I have restored at least three of these and remember the dot on these earlier restorations. Here is the dot and location on a current restored distributor in my collection. This distributor is date stamped July 1954, the first month of production for the VJU 4 BR 8.

_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

tasb · Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:34 pm Post subject:

This distributor represents several milestones for VW. It is obviously a redesign but it is also the reintroduction of the dual mechanical and vacuum advance distributor to the VW make. The dual advance distributor had been abandoned in 1960 in favor of vacuum only distributors except for the type III ZV/VCJ 4 R 3 used for only one year in the mid 60's. The part # 113 905 205 P.

This unit was installed stock on 1968 automatic transmission beetles. The first year for that option. It retains the old short cap and rotor design while using the newer condenser and points design that would remain through the late 70's distributor production.

_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

glutamodo · Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:47 pm Post subject:

I never thought that one was that rare.

Oddball though, yeah it was definitely a departure for the norm at the time. I've got one of them too... found it interesting that the breaker plate actually lists a US Patent number on it!

(which, if you Google that number, refers to the pre-loaded ball bearing, via the spring-steel metal cup that bolts down on it from above, which stabilizes the breaker plate on SVDA and, later on, DVDA distributors)

-Andy

tasb · Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:13 pm Post subject:

Perhaps not all that rare though I was thinking that there weren't that many auto trans beetles in 1968.

Features:

new design breaker plate
new design points
new design condenser
new design housing

While at the same time:

old style cap
old style rotor
old style mechanical advance weights ie same as the old 36 hp beetle (115)
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

glutamodo · Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject:

Yeah, no arguments that it was unique and oddball! Very Happy

And probably fairly rare as well. I got a bunch of photos of the one I have, but I've not put many of them up online as I've had no need as of yet to reference them... Wink

tasb · Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:43 am Post subject:

Back on page 5 near the middle there is some information on a distributor with a 315 prefix. Here is it's brother. This one does have a VW part #: 315 905 205 B. this seems to indicate that it would have been installed on production type III engines along with the 311 905 205 G for 1967.

All the data though seems to suggest that this is a service department replacement distributor. I believe this information to be in error. Which then begs the question; What is the difference between this distributor and the above 311 905 205 G both used in 1967? and another; Would the service department distributor have been offered before the production version? ie: 311 B (service department) coming before 311 G (factory production)?

_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

glutamodo · Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:00 am Post subject:

Actually, looking at the the Type 3 parts book, it shows that as production line installation beginning with engine K 0 120 745 on models 315-318, 365-368,(which would have been late in model year 1968, on the non-USA 1500 model) but also as service replacement for several older units.

tasb · Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:06 pm Post subject:

Thank you for the clarification Andy. I see that there actually is a model 315 type III. I am not very familiar with this model. That would explain the 315 prefix for the distributor, I suppose.

I just found a VJR 4 BR 2 distributor. It would be a rare one having only been in production on buses from December 1953 until January 1954. There were fewer than 18,000 buses produced during this time period. A feature coming soon.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

tasb · Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:06 pm Post subject:

Finally had a chance to restore this very rare distributor as stated above.

This distributor features the early no lubrication boss housing. The screened vent cap is present, as well.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse


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Rare Unique and Oddball stock ignition distributors
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