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Jockomo
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Joined: October 11, 2006
Posts: 138
Location: Lafayette, LA
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 Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:44 am Post subject: Annealing copper on exhaust manifold rings |
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Mr. Atwell suggests annealing the copper rings before installing them:
Use an infrared gun to measure the surface temperature of the rings by moving the flame away for a moment and once you hit 900F
I don't have an infrared gun to measure the temperature, any suggestions as to how to tell when I get to 900? I guess I can try over and over until it doesn't ring when tossed on the ground, however I don't want to damage the ring.
suggestions?
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'75 Westy with '78 2.0L engine. |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 17550
Location: State Capitol CA (Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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it will turn colors. Heat gun at HF is inexpensive and useful in other places
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Steve aka Merlin the Wrench
formerly Steve's Racing and Engine Blueprinting. Wrenching since 1967.
bdamico on GF wrote | Quote: | | "When I was your age I'd plan out all sorts of stuff for the future and almost none of them came true. Just wonder if it's worth trying to be a crystal ball. " |
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Mal evolent
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Joined: March 31, 2009
Posts: 1833
Location: Socorro, Nuevo Mexico
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: |
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old schol English motorcycle technique: heat it in a fllame til it's orange and drop it in a pan of water.
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73 Beetle, Ghia front brakes, Type 3 rear brakes, 1776, Solex 34 Pict-3, Bosch SVDA, '97 Mustang seats
[77 Westy M plate decoded]
Baja Bugs for Volkswagen Virgins: Index |
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WyzeOwl
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Joined: December 20, 2011
Posts: 1
Location: Ontario
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Mal evolent wrote: | | old schol English motorcycle technique: heat it in a fllame til it's orange and drop it in a pan of water. |
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if you want to anneal (soften) the copper you should let it air cool. Dropping it in water will temper it thus hardening the copper. |
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mtcamper
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Joined: June 15, 2010
Posts: 181
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| Drop them on the ground before and the noise it makes when it hits the ground is very metallic, after annealing them they just make a thud sound when dropped |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 19983
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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I just don't buy that this needs to be done. I guess if the bore up in the heads is really bad it might be needed, but if everything is close to original spec it should not be necessary.
File the flanges flat with a big bastard file and then round the edges of the flange a bit with a smaller one and you should be set. |
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VDubTech
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Joined: December 29, 2002
Posts: 8551
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| WyzeOwl wrote: | | Mal evolent wrote: | | old schol English motorcycle technique: heat it in a fllame til it's orange and drop it in a pan of water. |
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if you want to anneal (soften) the copper you should let it air cool. Dropping it in water will temper it thus hardening the copper. |
You're wrong. Heat it up red hot, drop it into a pan of water and you're ready to go. Drop one on the ground that isn't annealed and drop an annealed one, you'll hear the difference in the tone. I always do this when installing an exhaust and haven't had a leak yet.
If you do it on a concrete floor, once the concrete pops, it's hot enough, drop it in the water.
As for whether it's necessary, everything I have read says to do it. It takes 5 minutes and I've never had an exhaust leak at the head using this method. Little extra insurance never hurt anyone. Makes sense to me that a softer copper gasket would seal better.
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First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=
| borninabus wrote: | | a measurement of your rod would be extremely useful. |
| notchboy wrote: | | my dad wasnt a belittling cock when he tought me how to wrench on cars. |
| EverettB wrote: | One photo = good for reference.
10 photos = douchebaggery |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 17550
Location: State Capitol CA (Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| VDubTech wrote: | | WyzeOwl wrote: | | Mal evolent wrote: | | old schol English motorcycle technique: heat it in a fllame til it's orange and drop it in a pan of water. |
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that if you want to anneal (soften) the copper you should let it air cool. Dropping it in water will temper it thus hardening the copper. |
You're wrong. Heat it up red hot, drop it into a pan of water and you're ready to go. Drop one on the ground that isn't annealed and drop an annealed one, you'll hear the difference in the tone. I always do this when installing an exhaust and haven't had a leak yet.
If you do it on a concrete floor, once the concrete pops, it's hot enough, drop it in the water.
As for whether it's necessary, everything I have read says to do it. It takes 5 minutes and I've never had an exhaust leak at the head using this method. Little extra insurance never hurt anyone. Makes sense to me that a softer copper gasket would seal better. |
don't drop it from too high, they will bend when they are soft. It is a super tip for anyone building a T4 engine. It was something I would not have guessed had not the old pros like Richard or VDubTech, BusDaddy etc pointed it out when I first came back to buses and bought a T4 bus.
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Steve aka Merlin the Wrench
formerly Steve's Racing and Engine Blueprinting. Wrenching since 1967.
bdamico on GF wrote | Quote: | | "When I was your age I'd plan out all sorts of stuff for the future and almost none of them came true. Just wonder if it's worth trying to be a crystal ball. " |
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VDubTech
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Joined: December 29, 2002
Posts: 8551
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: | | don't drop it from too high, they will bend when they are soft. |
Good point Steve, definitely worth mentioning.
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First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=
| borninabus wrote: | | a measurement of your rod would be extremely useful. |
| notchboy wrote: | | my dad wasnt a belittling cock when he tought me how to wrench on cars. |
| EverettB wrote: | One photo = good for reference.
10 photos = douchebaggery |
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Jockomo
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Joined: October 11, 2006
Posts: 138
Location: Lafayette, LA
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Millennium Falcon
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Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Are there any tips for removing the copper rings from the cylinder heads?
I have my heater boxes and exhaust off in order to file and even up the manifold mating surface but the old copper rings are remaining firmly in place. Seems like a pretty soft area to dig them out of with out causing a bit of damage.
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"Don't worry, she'll hold together . . . You hear me, baby? Hold together!" -Han to the Falcon
1972 White Campmobile
1700 cc Type IV
Dual Solex 34 PDSIT2/3 |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 23896
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, Land of the giant flying moose!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: |
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There's a few ways to go at it, pry bars like this can often get under the inside edge when the bar is placed across the port:
Or dinging it with a dull screwdriver or chisel across the middle of the straight sides of the oval can bend the ring enough to lift the rounded ends.
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Wanted, 68-73 westy OG plaid curtains, singles OK. |
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Millennium Falcon
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Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:09 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the good ideas to work with. Thanks busdaddy.
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"Don't worry, she'll hold together . . . You hear me, baby? Hold together!" -Han to the Falcon
1972 White Campmobile
1700 cc Type IV
Dual Solex 34 PDSIT2/3 |
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