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Better Braking?
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62dcw
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Better Braking? Reply with quote

Is there any benefit going to larger wheel cylinders for better braking? I have a 62' Bug drum brakes F/R with Kymco semi-metallic shoes which has helped braking. What wheel cylinders would work and would you need to change the stock Master Cylinder?
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Hammarlund
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This has been discussed many times.

The stock braking system, if properly maintained and set up, is perfectly capable of locking the wheels.

In other words, the stock system has all the braking power you can actually use in the real world.

Now, that's not to say there are not significant advantages to some modifications. Disc brakes, for example, are not subject to fade.

However, what it does mean is that if your brakes won't lock up the wheels, you need to fix them, not modify them.

There may be differing opinions on this, of course. I'll gladly let others have their say. But I think you'll notice most of the counter-arguments are conditional ("That's not true if...") or anecdotal ("My cousin once had a car...") and do not address the basic idea that if the stock system can lock up the wheels, any extra negative acceleration gained by modifications is meaningless.
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offshores
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know a lot of people change their masters in older Bugs from single circuit to dual circuit for safety reasons. Not sure if it helps braking, but might be good to know if you're changing some stuff. Worth some more research. Lots of info on that too.
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stock system could lock the wheels, at least with the skinny bias-ply tires in use at the time. A wider radial can hold a lot more braking force, so a better system might show some benefit.

But here's another thought... unless you have significantly modified the suspension (and I DON'T mean lowering!), if your brakes are in good shape but still not stopping the car, then you are simply driving too fast for the safe capabilities of a 50 year old car design!
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Chuey
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My car is a '64 and the original brakes were in very good working condition. I have 145's on the front and 165's on the rear. It would not lock the wheels. I should say that I never did lock the wheels but acknowledge that I never set out to see if I could. I'm not saying that to say KTPhil is wrong.

I can say for sure that since I put disc brakes on the front and type three brakes on the rear (parts and work done by Old Speed), my car stops way better than it did before. I still have never locked the wheels up. Now it feels like I could at least do it. I have to admit, I don't tailgate at all.

Driving on So. Cal. freeways was way worse with stock brakes.

Chuey
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smitty24
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had many vws with stock brake systems, most of which I replaced and adjusted everything with quality new parts. In my experience, I could get ALL of my cars to lock up the fronts and slide, except my '64 bus. On the bugs, I have ran many tire and wheel combos= I could get 135s, 145 Smarts, 165/60, 165/80, 175/65 to all lock up on fronts with stock brakes. Anything over 165 is a bit harder to lock up. I have found that weight in the car (especially fuel weight in the tank) and tire pressure are key. With panic stops and the nice folks that cut you off, stock braking never feels safe regardless. With my car now, I have discs on front and stock German drums on rear. I was locking the front and sliding during panic maneuvers (hard to avoid in Utah) with just me and 165/60 tires- dry pavement 30mph. Larger engines dont help since there is more low end torque/force pushing the car that needs to be stopped.

If you really want it to stop nice, you need weight in the car/ wide enough tires/ correct pressure/ good amount of weight up front/ correctly setup suspension/ awesome braking. I personally like wide tires all around, discs up front and type 3 drums on rear. Rear discs also work. Discs on skinny tires dont do much better than skinny tires with maintained drums.
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62dcw
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found that upgrading my brake shoes ( Kymco ) did improve the braking. I just heard that larger wheel cylinders ( not master ) would push the shoes up against the drums more? I do adjust my brakes to keep them working properly. I drive conservatively and don't ride the brakes excessive. I'm running 165R15 radials and car is at stock ride height.I have been looking at CB Perf. or Airkweld's front disk brake kits and just maintaining the stock drums in the rear.
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drscope
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can't just change the $13 wheel cylinder.

You need to change a lot more.

Since the size of the wheel cylinder is determined by it's diameter, changing the size of the wheel cylinder means the center of the cylinder moves out away from the backing plate.

And since you can't change the mount for the adjusters on the backing plate, you can't move it out.

So you need to change the backing plate as well.

Then the shoes you had are going to be too skinny, so you need to go with the fatter shoes so they ride against the backing plate the way they are supposed to.

And that will require changing the retainer pins to the longer pins.

And then you will find you can't put your skinny shoe drum on over fatter shoes.

So, would you really like to change all that stuff, or just keep saving for that nice disc set up?
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vaughn bros.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are currently relocating the master over to the passenger side using a homemade bellcrank that sits in the front bulkhead.

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Hotrodvw
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Properly adjusted drums work well for a stock car. You want to go faster? You'll need to stop faster. Drums glsze over, then what do you have? Discs all the way, never look back. Simple, maintenance free other than replacing worn pads, no adjustments, no fading, shall I go on?
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vaughn bros.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just wanted to share a few more pics.

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Hotrodvw
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to ask...............


WHY??
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vaughn bros.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hotrodvw wrote:
I have to ask...............


WHY??


We need the space in front of bulkhead.
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Hotrodvw
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotcha
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drscope
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vaughn bros. wrote:
Hotrodvw wrote:
I have to ask...............


WHY??


We need the space in front of bulkhead.


OK I'll ask...

What do you need the space for on the driver's side that you don't need it for on the passenger's side?

And in place of going through all that fabrication work, would it have been easier to just hang the pedals under the dash and go with a high mounted master?
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vaughn bros.
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can see about where it goes. It will be all boxed and strong. The unit will unbolt for cleaning and servicing or adjusting.
We need all the available room in front of bulkhead for chassis tubing and such. The master is going sideways in the passenger floorboard. There won't be any passengers. Off topic I know. Sorry to crash the thread.

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62dcw
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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably the best way to go is to install disk brakes up front. After reviewing all of your inputs, the gains would be small if any. Now to open up another discussion, of all the wide 5 front disc brake kits out there, I am deciding between either CB performance's or Airkweld's. Airkweld appears to a much nicer kit but double the cost? It's hard to justify the cost difference, when the braking performance between the two is probably about the same. Any input out there?
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drscope
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless of which brakes you choose, keep in mind the real stopping power is between the pavement and the tire.

You can have all the brakes in the world, but if you don't have the right rubber on the road, it ain't going to matter.

I like the posts with a narrow beam and totally screwed up Ackerman, no shocks, and 135's or silly spares up front, with disc brakes for extra stopping power! Yea right!

But it handles great and rides really well.
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Hotrodvw
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brake bias plays a large part as well. You can use a proportioning valve to dial out some of the front brake bias to help if you run narrow tires.
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Horsepower is an addiction........Addictions cost
lots of money!

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