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Tram 
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Joined: May 02, 2003
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Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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 Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| neena wrote: | | Tram wrote: | Check the fuel pressure again, especially when the car "thuds" and is trying to move, but stalls.
Remove and check spark plugs. Are they fouled out again? |
Ok. Will do tomorrow.
But just for clarification, do we or don't we have a voltage and/or generator problem?
It's so maddening/confusing that we've changed out SO many parts and have verified others by resistance and/or continuity and still we're no better off than we were once we got it started 2 weeks ago!!! |
I think I'd clean the commutator and change the gen brushes just to know it's done. It's cheap, and it's easy.
The car should run a lot better than it does at that voltage.
Check the plugs and the fuel pressure tomorrow and let's see what this tells us.
One other thing... Does the car push very easily? Any chance of a stuck brake?
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D/A/N
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Joined: September 18, 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: | | neena wrote: | | Tram wrote: | Check the fuel pressure again, especially when the car "thuds" and is trying to move, but stalls.
Remove and check spark plugs. Are they fouled out again? |
Ok. Will do tomorrow.
But just for clarification, do we or don't we have a voltage and/or generator problem?
It's so maddening/confusing that we've changed out SO many parts and have verified others by resistance and/or continuity and still we're no better off than we were once we got it started 2 weeks ago!!! |
I think I'd clean the commutator and change the gen brushes just to know it's done. It's cheap, and it's easy.
The car should run a lot better than it does at that voltage.
Check the plugs and the fuel pressure tomorrow and let's see what this tells us.
One other thing... Does the car push very easily? Any chance of a stuck brake? |
We have 2 spare brushes on hand so we can do a change out.
The car does NOT push very easily but it pushes. It seems there's a bit of binding at the driver's left wheel. We have new soft brake lines but have been so focused on the engine that we haven't changed them. If we can push the car (even w/ difficulty) shouldn't the engine be able to make enough power to overcome the brake?
If we're going to test the fuel pressure while driving we're going to need to make our own gauge so it'll be long enough. What size fuel line fits over the test point? |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 10617
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | neena wrote: | | Tram wrote: | Check the fuel pressure again, especially when the car "thuds" and is trying to move, but stalls.
Remove and check spark plugs. Are they fouled out again? |
Ok. Will do tomorrow.
But just for clarification, do we or don't we have a voltage and/or generator problem?
It's so maddening/confusing that we've changed out SO many parts and have verified others by resistance and/or continuity and still we're no better off than we were once we got it started 2 weeks ago!!! |
I think I'd clean the commutator and change the gen brushes just to know it's done. It's cheap, and it's easy.
The car should run a lot better than it does at that voltage.
Check the plugs and the fuel pressure tomorrow and let's see what this tells us.
One other thing... Does the car push very easily? Any chance of a stuck brake? |
We have 2 spare brushes on hand so we can do a change out.
The car does NOT push very easily but it pushes. It seems there's a bit of binding at the driver's left wheel. We have new soft brake lines but have been so focused on the engine that we haven't changed them. If we can push the car (even w/ difficulty) shouldn't the engine be able to make enough power to overcome the brake?
If we're going to test the fuel pressure while driving we're going to need to make our own gauge so it'll be long enough. What size fuel line fits over the test point? |
5/16ths standard fuel hose. I made mine for under 10 bucks, getting my gauge from Lowes (a 0 to 60psi gauge) some brass fittings (to adapt from 1/8th inch pipe to 5/16ths hose size), and a couple of hose clamps and some hose). If you're going from the test port to the front of the cabin, you'll need about 8 ft of hose. So you're gauge set up will cost you a little more.  My original set up used a 18 inch hose. But I bought a 10 section of hose for when I was doing some FI testing on my Notch (had to run it outside, then back into the car).
The engine will over come the brakes, but it takes a lot of power to do this. You might find that replacing the soft lines, frees up some "extra" hp that you're missing.
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here; http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=240540 -tear down
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
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D/A/N
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Bobnotch wrote: | | D/A/N wrote: | We have 2 spare brushes on hand so we can do a change out.
The car does NOT push very easily but it pushes. It seems there's a bit of binding at the driver's left wheel. We have new soft brake lines but have been so focused on the engine that we haven't changed them. If we can push the car (even w/ difficulty) shouldn't the engine be able to make enough power to overcome the brake?
If we're going to test the fuel pressure while driving we're going to need to make our own gauge so it'll be long enough. What size fuel line fits over the test point? |
5/16ths standard fuel hose. I made mine for under 10 bucks, getting my gauge from Lowes (a 0 to 60psi gauge) some brass fittings (to adapt from 1/8th inch pipe to 5/16ths hose size), and a couple of hose clamps and some hose). If you're going from the test port to the front of the cabin, you'll need about 8 ft of hose. So you're gauge set up will cost you a little more. My original set up used a 18 inch hose. But I bought a 10 section of hose for when I was doing some FI testing on my Notch (had to run it outside, then back into the car).
The engine will over come the brakes, but it takes a lot of power to do this. You might find that replacing the soft lines, frees up some "extra" hp that you're missing. |
Thanks for this!
Somehow, in my head, the test nipple on the fuel rail is smaller than 5/16. I guess it just "looks" smaller than the connections on either end of the rail.
I've got plenty of extra hose...lazy guy at AutoZone sold me a whole box of 5/16 line for the price of 1 ft. b/c he didn't want to open it up and measure.....even though the length was printed on the box 
I might be able to just modify the pressure gauge I have by cutting off the hose and adding a longer segment. I hate the end of it anyway (for Schrader valve) b/c unless you hold it just so, you get gas all over the place.
I hear you on the brakes.....guess that's next. |
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COFBack
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:09 am Post subject: |
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I have had instances where I thought the timing was correct (i.e. set at idle with a digital timing light) only to find out that something was gooned up in the distributor.
Hook up your timing light and watch how much advance you get as the engine revs up. I would do this with and without your vacuum advance hooked up.
This will give you an indication of whether your advance is working.
No power on acceleration could be an advance problem.
Chin(s) up
RMS
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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Posts: 16854
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, chin up. Let us know how the fuel pressure and spark plugs are. Get that brake freed up! If it's rubbing, it's heating up and likely binding more the more you drive! You'll have to address this anyways; so addressing it now only means it's another thing off the list. Plus, this brake drag is hell on the clutch!
Let's get this beeyatch DONE!!! 
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neena
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: | Yes, chin up. Let us know how the fuel pressure and spark plugs are. Get that brake freed up! If it's rubbing, it's heating up and likely binding more the more you drive! You'll have to address this anyways; so addressing it now only means it's another thing off the list. Plus, this brake drag is hell on the clutch!
Let's get this beeyatch DONE!!! |
I completely echo the sentiment that this beeyatch needs to be DONE!!
Today we replaced the generator brushes, cleaned the commutator, and tried to tighten the fan belt which is loose as a wet noodle so we didn't get it that tight.
We also pulled all the spark plugs. #2 and #3 were oily. #2 cleaned up fine, but #3 was so bad we replaced it. In FI, what accounts for different conditions at each plug? Is having 4 injectors somewhat like having dual double barrel carbs in that each cylinder can have a different mixture? Anyway, here are pics. What are the plugs telling us about the system?
2 (left) and 1 (right)
4 (left) and 3 (right)
After replacing the brushes and cleaning the commutator, we had some good news:
--Car started up right away instead of after 3 or 4 tries.
--Overall, there was a HUGE increase in performance and slight increase in voltage.
--Now, we're up to 14.15 and 14.16 over 14.12 maximum before.
--We went on a test drive w/ fuel pressure gauge connected. The whole time the needle stayed b/w 30 and 32, even though while driving it was vibrating like crazy. At no time did it diminish, even when engine thudded.
--The car was idling a bit high and wandering from 950 up to a little over 1000. Sprayed for vac leaks but didn't find any.
--Another big improvement is that the car idled NON-STOP after a drive that would normally stall it at least twice. The only reason the engine stopped running is that we turned it off.
--Just for kicks, we decided to start it up again right away and it started on the first try. For all these weeks it would take many tries and up to 30 mins for the car to start again after running though usually it would stall.
--Throttle and ability to handle load felt surprisingly better today. Renewed my commitment to getting this dang thing done.
Tomorrow, we tackle the brake lines. I could tell today that there's more overall power but that the brake line is dragging things down, especially when shifting. There was more power when beginning to drive, and after stopping and then driving up a 1-3% grade. The thudding seemed to come from the engine "lugging" after loosing speed/rpms to the brake drag.
Can 3 to 4 hundredths of a volt really make such difference in how the car runs? And if so, how do we create enough of a buffer to maintain an "advantage" on the system?
Now what should we do? |
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Tram
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Again, it isn't all just about volts. it's about amps, too.Remember the plumbing example: Volts is the water volume, amps is the water pressure. Ya gotta have BOTH! This is why higher amp alternators are sometimes required with additional electrical equipment.
This also sort of makes the spark plug condition overall a moot point. Now that you have volts/ amps, you need to run it a bit more. Make damn sure the grounds for the FI harness are CLEAN and TIGHT.
| neena wrote: | | Can 3 to 4 hundredths of a volt really make such difference in how the car runs? And if so, how do we create enough of a buffer to maintain an "advantage" on the system? |
Yes, and I think you just did! 
OK, get the brakes gone through next, and THEN you need to get to the bottom of this "thudding" engine. It could be the brake issue causing it, it could be a CV, or it could be engine mounts/ something else.
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Tram
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Geesh. 19 pages. I'm gonna need a few Manhattans after this.
Oh, and drop the fuel pressure to 28.
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D/A/N
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Joined: September 18, 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: | Geesh. 19 pages. I'm gonna need a few Manhattans after this.
Oh, and drop the fuel pressure to 28. |
How about the day this thing runs for real we'll send you a bottle of rye so you can make a real Manhattan?
As for fuel pressure, it seems we have an UNADJUSTABLE after-market regulator. Not Bosch, no screw in front. But we do have a new adjustable Bosch one sitting in a box. Swap it in and adjust to 28?
And we'll fix the brakes and investigate the grounds. Maybe altogether a new harness would be a good idea just to eliminate any extra resistance, bad grounds, old/funky connections, etc? |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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Posts: 16854
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: | | Tram wrote: | Geesh. 19 pages. I'm gonna need a few Manhattans after this.
Oh, and drop the fuel pressure to 28. |
How about the day this thing runs for real we'll send you a bottle of rye so you can make a real Manhattan?
As for fuel pressure, it seems we have an UNADJUSTABLE after-market regulator. Not Bosch, no screw in front. But we do have a new adjustable Bosch one sitting in a box. Swap it in and adjust to 28?
And we'll fix the brakes and investigate the grounds. Maybe altogether a new harness would be a good idea just to eliminate any extra resistance, bad grounds, old/funky connections, etc? |
That one I sent you OHM'd out perfectly. Get a new one from JSMskater down the road if you want.
How is the harness on the "A" you picked up?
And yes, get rid of the aftermarket pressure regulator. A D-Jet regulator has to be adjustable.
The Manhattans I make call for Maker's Mark, bitters, and sweet vermouth with a couple Maraschinos. It's the old Stork Club recipe that my parents got from Billingsley himself way back when. Yeah, my grandparents and parents were "playas" back in the Day.
But, the rye sounds interesting. You're on.
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D/A/N
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: | | D/A/N wrote: | | Tram wrote: | Geesh. 19 pages. I'm gonna need a few Manhattans after this.
Oh, and drop the fuel pressure to 28. |
How about the day this thing runs for real we'll send you a bottle of rye so you can make a real Manhattan?
As for fuel pressure, it seems we have an UNADJUSTABLE after-market regulator. Not Bosch, no screw in front. But we do have a new adjustable Bosch one sitting in a box. Swap it in and adjust to 28?
And we'll fix the brakes and investigate the grounds. Maybe altogether a new harness would be a good idea just to eliminate any extra resistance, bad grounds, old/funky connections, etc? |
That one I sent you OHM'd out perfectly. Get a new one from JSMskater down the road if you want.
How is the harness on the "A" you picked up?
And yes, get rid of the aftermarket pressure regulator. A D-Jet regulator has to be adjustable. |
The harness on the "A" we got seems like it's from another system. The lengths are all wrong and there are fewer connectors/boots than what we require and a few connectors that don't make sense next to ours.
New regulator will go in tomorrow.
Rye forthcoming. |
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JSMskater
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Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5204
Location: Las Cruces NM
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | D/A/N wrote: | | Tram wrote: | Geesh. 19 pages. I'm gonna need a few Manhattans after this.
Oh, and drop the fuel pressure to 28. |
How about the day this thing runs for real we'll send you a bottle of rye so you can make a real Manhattan?
As for fuel pressure, it seems we have an UNADJUSTABLE after-market regulator. Not Bosch, no screw in front. But we do have a new adjustable Bosch one sitting in a box. Swap it in and adjust to 28?
And we'll fix the brakes and investigate the grounds. Maybe altogether a new harness would be a good idea just to eliminate any extra resistance, bad grounds, old/funky connections, etc? |
That one I sent you OHM'd out perfectly. Get a new one from JSMskater down the road if you want.
How is the harness on the "A" you picked up?
And yes, get rid of the aftermarket pressure regulator. A D-Jet regulator has to be adjustable. |
The harness on the "A" we got seems like it's from another system. The lengths are all wrong and there are fewer connectors/boots than what we require and a few connectors that don't make sense next to ours.
New regulator will go in tomorrow.
Rye forthcoming. |
Might be from a 914 or 411/412. you have a PM.
adjust the regulator to 28, but in mine it ran best and got the best mileage at 29.5; YMMV. Once you have the car more or less settled and you're happy with it, you can do one final tweak to the fuel pressure at idle and you can hear things smooth out.
Just for my clarification -- what issues are still left unresolved? It seems to start and idle ok now, but its lacking power?
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D/A/N
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Joined: September 18, 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: | | D/A/N wrote: | | Tram wrote: | | D/A/N wrote: | | Tram wrote: | Geesh. 19 pages. I'm gonna need a few Manhattans after this.
Oh, and drop the fuel pressure to 28. |
How about the day this thing runs for real we'll send you a bottle of rye so you can make a real Manhattan?
As for fuel pressure, it seems we have an UNADJUSTABLE after-market regulator. Not Bosch, no screw in front. But we do have a new adjustable Bosch one sitting in a box. Swap it in and adjust to 28?
And we'll fix the brakes and investigate the grounds. Maybe altogether a new harness would be a good idea just to eliminate any extra resistance, bad grounds, old/funky connections, etc? |
That one I sent you OHM'd out perfectly. Get a new one from JSMskater down the road if you want.
How is the harness on the "A" you picked up?
And yes, get rid of the aftermarket pressure regulator. A D-Jet regulator has to be adjustable. |
The harness on the "A" we got seems like it's from another system. The lengths are all wrong and there are fewer connectors/boots than what we require and a few connectors that don't make sense next to ours.
New regulator will go in tomorrow.
Rye forthcoming. |
Might be from a 914 or 411/412. you have a PM.
adjust the regulator to 28, but in mine it ran best and got the best mileage at 29.5; YMMV. Once you have the car more or less settled and you're happy with it, you can do one final tweak to the fuel pressure at idle and you can hear things smooth out.
Just for my clarification -- what issues are still left unresolved? It seems to start and idle ok now, but its lacking power? |
Here's a pic of the harness in question.....the boots have "311" part #'s but the starter ground wire is way too short and there's a cluster of grounds we don't have as well as a different cluster of wires for the trigger points, no wire for the cylinder head temp sensor, etc. etc.
For clarification......yesterday we finally got it to start, idle, and go w/o stalling or thudding. The lack of power we're thinking is a function of a binding front brake so we're going to tackle that in addition to the fuel pressure adjustment. We may be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel..... |
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D/A/N
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Joined: September 18, 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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We got all set to do the brake line today......Even got as far as getting the wheel off, jacking the thing up, etc.
After a number of attempts, it seems pretty clear that the metal line is either going to twist along w/ the connector on its end and snap off or that we're going to round off the nut trying to get it loose.
Soft brake line still has a VW logo on it so I'm assuming these guys (the metal and soft lines) have been together since some time in '69.
Rather than preserve the metal line I figured why not do what has to be done to get it off and get some new stuff?
Only thing is I can't figure out the length to get.
Would this work for the Driver's Front Left wheel?
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/AGS-3...85315_0_0_
Or, if anyone knows offhand the lengths for both front sides and both rear sides, I'd be grateful! |
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MOCHABILL
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Joined: June 12, 2008
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Location: BY THE BAY
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: | We got all set to do the brake line today......Even got as far as getting the wheel off, jacking the thing up, etc.
After a number of attempts, it seems pretty clear that the metal line is either going to twist along w/ the connector on its end and snap off or that we're going to round off the nut trying to get it loose.
Soft brake line still has a VW logo on it so I'm assuming these guys (the metal and soft lines) have been together since some time in '69.
Rather than preserve the metal line I figured why not do what has to be done to get it off and get some new stuff?
Only thing is I can't figure out the length to get.
Would this work for the Driver's Front Left wheel?
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/AGS-3...85315_0_0_
Or, if anyone knows offhand the lengths for both front sides and both rear sides, I'd be grateful! |
Check with Jim Adney,makes up proper brake lines for our t-3's.
Adney, Jim
[email protected] 
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'07 Passat wagon 2.0
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Bobnotch
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KTPhil
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Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| With several port configurations used over the years (and on replacement masters), your best bet is to take two cost hangers, and bend them both to fit your installation. Then straighten one out and measure it-- buy that length (or the next larger size) of pre-made straight pipe. Then bend it to match your second coat hanger. It will then fit like a glove! |
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neena
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Posts: 339
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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We wound up getting some brake line from Grand Master Tram. Replacement of the front two lines went well. Cut open the soft lines. They were brittle and the inner passage was barely visible.
Only problem is that even with the new lines the brake pad is STILL bound. Pressing the pedal doesn't even move it a fraction of an inch in or out. Would this mean there might be some problem in the caliper itself? Or something else? |
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Tram
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Posts: 16854
Location: The human race, AKA 'God's Edsel'
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| neena wrote: | We wound up getting some brake line from Grand Master Tram. Replacement of the front two lines went well. Cut open the soft lines. They were brittle and the inner passage was barely visible.
Only problem is that even with the new lines the brake pad is STILL bound. Pressing the pedal doesn't even move it a fraction of an inch in or out. Would this mean there might be some problem in the caliper itself? Or something else? |
Sounds like it's caliper time.
Do it all & do it right:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Volkswagen-Beetle-Bug-D...496wt_1183
At that price, it's not even worth messing with used ones.
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