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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: '69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures |
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About a month or so ago, I started a thread about a blue '65 Squareback in Phoenix, AZ
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=509526&highlight=experts
It ended around the time I made an offer for a non-op '69 in MN. Well, the thing is finally on its way and due to arrive in NY tomorrow after being picked up yesterday. Amazing what can happen when you find a good shipper!
Here's a pic I got of the car on its way taken by the shipper/driver
According to the seller, the car "floods out" within a short while after being started so after replacing all the fuel lines, putting in new oil, and draining out the old gas, my wife and I are going to start digging in.
So far, I've been reading through the FI sticky, got the Bentley, and got the Elfrink FI manual.
I've also have a digital multimeter, a Harbor Freight fuel/vacuum pressure gauge (can't testify to its quality or lack thereof), and all the tools and whatnot I use for my '73 bug.
Anything else I might need? A noid light?
Also, I was talking to an old-school VW mechanic the other day and he said when he worked for VW the first thing he would look at when an FI car was having a problem like mine was the cylinder head temp sensor. He said it might not solve the problem but if it does or doesn't I'm only out $16.
Any thoughts?
Last edited by D/A/N on Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:01 pm; edited 14 times in total |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Introduction: '69 FI Squareback |
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D/A/N wrote: |
About a month or so ago, I started a thread about a blue '65 Squareback in Phoenix, AZ
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=509526&highlight=experts
It ended around the time I made an offer for a non-op '69 in MN. Well, the thing is finally on its way and due to arrive in NY tomorrow after being picked up yesterday. Amazing what can happen when you find a good shipper!
Here's a pic I got of the car on its way taken by the shipper/driver
According to the seller, the car "floods out" within a short while after being started so after replacing all the fuel lines, putting in new oil, and draining out the old gas, my wife and I are going to start digging in.
So far, I've been reading through the FI sticky, got the Bentley, and got the Elfrink FI manual.
I've also have a digital multimeter, a Harbor Freight fuel/vacuum pressure gauge (can't testify to its quality or lack thereof), and all the tools and whatnot I use for my '73 bug.
Anything else I might need? A noid light?
Also, I was talking to an old-school VW mechanic the other day and he said when he worked for VW the first thing he would look at when an FI car was having a problem like mine was the cylinder head temp sensor. He said it might not solve the problem but if it does or doesn't I'm only out $16.
Any thoughts? |
Stop.
First: Inspect/ smell oil and make sure it has no gas in it. If in doubt, change it.
Second: Check ignition system and make sure it's 100% in order with PLAIN Bosch or NGK plugs. No platinum, no 3 prong, no Autolite or Champion. Check point gap, then cap, rotor, wires and coil with your ohmmeter.
Third: Test charging system. If the car is just running off the battery voltage, it'll run rich and then stall.
Fourth: Inspect all vacuum lines. A leak will make you run rich.
Fifth: Check fuel pressure and adjust to 28psi.
When all this is done, verified, and checked off, we go to Phase II.
Stay on track. This is a process of elimination. Don't jump around, and don't overthink. It's either in specs, or it's not and needs to be addressed.
ALL of these things ABSOLUTELY MUST-MUST- MUST be in order before you go diving into the FI system.
This is not negotiable.
In fact, once you get it diagnosed and running, I'd take a day or a weekend and go through the car stem to stern as outlined here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/looklisten_18.php
There are some differences between the 1500 and your car, but almost all the maintenance is the same.
Fuel injection:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/dlt_fuelinjection.php
Disc Brakes:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/looklisten_26.php
Anything else you want to know here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/looklistendoitbetter.php
GLAD to see this car get rescued! Who did you decide on for shipping? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Shipping was a real drag to arrange....quotes ranged from $550 to $1600 and the pickup location was more or less in a wildlife preserve 150 miles from the Canadian border. Drop off is at a relative's house (where I can work on the car in relative peace) just outside of NYC where I live. As a regular auto driver I know that tolls into and out of NYC are awful (as much as $13 to get out or in) so when the charge is by the axle I imagine it's horrendous.
After all those random shipping quotes, I went to uShip and got a decent offer from a guy based out of NY...."For His Glory Transport" (that's some name!) He picked the car up yesterday in MN and said he'll have it to me either tomorrow night or Thursday morning. That's good service as far as I'm concerned.
In terms of the steps you outlined, I'll follow them to the letter. Earliest report-back on the steps will be Friday or Saturday but I can't wait to get the thing running.
Of course FI sounds like a beautiful sensible system when you read about it....I fully expect it to be equal parts sensible and frustrating (or unequal parts of each) once we get involved. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the FI troubleshooting chart, which is to be used only after all of the above stuff is checked and put right:
_________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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As long as the Monte Carlo in the pic above doesn't roll back and through our windshield crushing the car against the tractor tire behind us, I'll follow the steps and THEN undertake the FI specific investigations in that workshop manual (supplement?) you posted. |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Ok...car arrived last night. Pics and stuff to follow.
In the meantime, I went through as many of Tram's 5 steps as were possible and here are the preliminary results:
First: Oil reeked of gas. Will be changed.
Second: Only checked two plugs (1/2) so far but they're both Champion RL87YC. Real black on the ends. I suspect 3/4 will be identical. Need Bosch or NGK. What #?
Third: NO BATTERY.
At this point, steps 4 and 5 are impossible without the right plugs and a battery. So off to the store..... |
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oleflorida Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2011 Posts: 67 Location: Boca Raton, FL
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Looking forward to see your results. Considered buying this one when it first hit CL. Best of luck! |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: |
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D/A/N wrote: |
Ok...car arrived last night. Pics and stuff to follow.
In the meantime, I went through as many of Tram's 5 steps as were possible and here are the preliminary results:
First: Oil reeked of gas. Will be changed.
Second: Only checked two plugs (1/2) so far but they're both Champion RL87YC. Real black on the ends. I suspect 3/4 will be identical. Need Bosch or NGK. What #?
Third: NO BATTERY.
At this point, steps 4 and 5 are impossible without the right plugs and a battery. So off to the store..... |
My drug of choice in the spark plug dept. is NGK B5HS.
Battery group size is 42 _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Got NGK B6HS spark plugs and a battery, and changed the oil.
Rubbing block on the points was almost non-existant, so those have to be replaced. Did the "suck test" on the distributor vacuum line and it worked fine. Old style stubby rotor was clean, but we did not test resistance. It returns to position when rotated.
Coil readings were 3.2 across the terminals and 9,500 from the center to terminal 15.
Then my wife and I got excited and tried to start it...We turned the key to the "on" position and heard the fuel pump whir, oil and generator lights came on, wipers started because they were set to "on", interior light came on, but when we tried to start it, we heard 3 or 4 clicks and then the electricity cut out. For the next couple of minutes, the lights wouldn't come back on. Then they did, so we tried to start it again, heard one click and electricity cut out.
Did we get too excited and f**k something up? We figured the car had to be on to check the charging system.
Will post some pictures later of some dodgy engine wiring and a bundle of orphan wires under the dash. |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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So here's the bundle of wires under the dash:
Here's some cheap looking splicing on the 1 & 2 injectors:
How about this plastic self-tapping drywall screw jammed into the temperature sensor:
Notice how there's a gap between the bell housing tin and the body (you can just see a corner of grass through the left side)?
And finally, here's a shot of the whole engine...how does it look?
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17963 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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The gap on the firewall tin is standard.
We blow up our Bentley wiring diagrams @ Kinkos to 11"X17" and have it laminated. Much easier to work with! _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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Bill Jacobs Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2004 Posts: 102
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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Looks real complete but the flexible air intake is missing (on the pass side from the body to the air filter). I have the feeling it will be running soon as you go the checklist and fix the small wiring issues you pointed out. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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D/A/N wrote: |
Got NGK B6HS spark plugs and a battery, and changed the oil.
Rubbing block on the points was almost non-existant, so those have to be replaced. Did the "suck test" on the distributor vacuum line and it worked fine. Old style stubby rotor was clean, but we did not test resistance. It returns to position when rotated.
Coil readings were 3.2 across the terminals and 9,500 from the center to terminal 15.
Then my wife and I got excited and tried to start it...We turned the key to the "on" position and heard the fuel pump whir, oil and generator lights came on, wipers started because they were set to "on", interior light came on, but when we tried to start it, we heard 3 or 4 clicks and then the electricity cut out. For the next couple of minutes, the lights wouldn't come back on. Then they did, so we tried to start it again, heard one click and electricity cut out.
Did we get too excited and f**k something up? We figured the car had to be on to check the charging system.
Will post some pictures later of some dodgy engine wiring and a bundle of orphan wires under the dash. |
Bad connection somewhere in the battery circuit. Check connections at the battery, starter, B+ on the voltage regulator. Check the grounds too. Look for corrosion.
The wiring under the dash is for an aftermarket radio.
That temp sensor needs to be hooked up correctly. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
Bad connection somewhere in the battery circuit. Check connections at the battery, starter, B+ on the voltage regulator. Check the grounds too. Look for corrosion.
The wiring under the dash is for an aftermarket radio.
That temp sensor needs to be hooked up correctly. |
Ok....the battery ground is frayed and the connections are filthy. I can check the rest in the AM.
Any guesses as to what someone might have been trying to accomplish by jamming the plastic screw into the temperature sensor like that? It's pretty firmly in there.
And Mike Fisher....thanks for the tip about the wiring diagrams! |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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D/A/N wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
Bad connection somewhere in the battery circuit. Check connections at the battery, starter, B+ on the voltage regulator. Check the grounds too. Look for corrosion.
The wiring under the dash is for an aftermarket radio.
That temp sensor needs to be hooked up correctly. |
Ok....the battery ground is frayed and the connections are filthy. I can check the rest in the AM.
Any guesses as to what someone might have been trying to accomplish by jamming the plastic screw into the temperature sensor like that? It's pretty firmly in there.
And Mike Fisher....thanks for the tip about the wiring diagrams! |
I have no clue about the temp sensor. Is the wiring connector for it intact? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
I have no clue about the temp sensor. Is the wiring connector for it intact? |
Not sure...its boot is slid up the wire a bit but in the morning I'll take the screw out to see what's up....I was so thrown by it being there that I just left the whole thing alone. |
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neena Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2010 Posts: 581 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Hi....I'm Jessica, the proud co-owner of this car with D/A/N and I've got some more pics.
Here's the temperature sensor with the plastic screw taken out....the two tabs are a little bent in opposite directions but they look okay and the two wires are there hanging out the side of the boot. But they're both black so it's unclear which one would go in which spot.
Here's what was holding our battery clamps on....pretty corroded
And finally, we've done some reading up on the relays beneath the back seat but haven't come across anything yet about there being 5 of them (plus the voltage regulator). Still novice at reading a wiring diagram though. Any ideas....like the one in the heater bellow?
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jessica:
Pic one- You need the correct connector there to keep the wires from touching when you plug it into the temp sensor. You'll need to test that temp sensor first with a VOM and see what the OHM readings are in it.
Pic three... Does this car have any auxiliary equipment like a gas heater? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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neena Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2010 Posts: 581 Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:49 am Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
Hi Jessica:
Pic one- You need the correct connector there to keep the wires from touching when you plug it into the temp sensor. You'll need to test that temp sensor first with a VOM and see what the OHM readings are in it.
Pic three... Does this car have any auxiliary equipment like a gas heater? |
Maybe the plastic screw was there to keep the wires from touching then? As for the connector, who/what/where is the source for replacements?
There's no auxiliary equipment currently in place and the trunk shows no signs of there having been a gas heater....plus it was originally a Texas car so that seems unlikely.
My husband thinks there might have been A/C though.
No signs of it on the dash but here's a long metal tube that looks like it comes from behind the back seat (didn't jack up to check) and runs along the transmission and ends near the 1/2 valve cover. Has a hole in the bottom at the end for water/condensation to run out of?
That doesn't explain the fact that there's 3 extra relays though and one in the bellow. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76761 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:54 am Post subject: |
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Nice to see you got the car.
Listen to Tram, he knows the T3 and can talk you through trouble shooting. if you need a set of hands, post it up on DVG and we'll see if anyone can wander over to help. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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