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'69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures
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Tram
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ataraxia wrote:
Tram wrote:
ataraxia wrote:
jadney wrote:
Re: FI intake gaskets. It would be great if someone would come up with a huge stash of correct gasket/insulators, but $11 each seems high to me.


I've got access to over 100 pieces and I thought the price seemed high as well but after currency conversion, shipping and such, that's it. They've been selling on eBay at $10-11 each...I guess if I don't wind up selling the first batch of 30 pieces, I can always take them to eBay.


The best price anywhere on the incorrect FI Beetle ones is $19. a pair plus ship, so this isn't really "out of line" for the correct stuff.

This is where the "cheapness legend" of Type 3 folks comes in... grinning, bearing it, and buying the right stuff will save you money and aggravation in the long run. I'm not talking about the well- known crack pipe pricing we see in the Classifieds Whine thread... I'm talking about stuff like this. It's an extra $2 to get the correct parts in this case, people... if your Type 3 isn't worth an extra $2 just STOP and sell it to someone who will do it up right...

[/rant] Laughing


You would shit yourself if you knew how much NOS FI stuff I've passed on buying. I don't have (and probably won't ever have) an FI car so I usually skip it when it's offered to me.


Well, you need to start letting me know about this stuff... it ain't all about you, Biatch!
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't had a chance yet to reconnect the 02 sensor and go for a drive so there are no updates on the state of the MAP sensor or etc.

Had a pleasant drive in the blizzard today though.....the car handles SO much better than a Type 1 in the snow. My only gripe was I could only see out of the windshield and the front windows.....everything else was fogged out. But I survived.

Of course, this car being what it is, there were a few interesting issues today. First was when I got into the car this morning. Something in the passenger side heater vent caught my eye:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


That's solid ice up to the lip of the vent! So there must be water getting in from somewhere...there was a very slight and incomplete water trail under the coco mat but it didn't go all the way to the vent. The coco mat wasn't wet though. It snowed a bit the other day and mostly melted so I guess that was the source but I can't be fully sure.

FWIW, the fresh air boxes leak a little bit of water into the car whenever it rains....not because they're plugged up though. We clean them out every few weeks. Perhaps the seals are bad? They also don't close up very well....there's always a draft out the vent even when fully closed. And when driving in the snow today, snow would gust into the car through the "closed" vents every time the wind was strong enough!

Then, an intermittent squeak developed in one of the wheels....either the passenger front or rear. Kind of like the squeak when a soft brake line collapses internally and the drums rub the shoes. Except in my experience that sound is constant, not intermittent. Plus, none of the soft lines are even 3 years old yet. And none of the hub caps were warm like they usually are if a brake is rubbing. Would a bearing in need of re-packing intermittently squeak?
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Tram
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the air box seals were new Summer of 2013 as was the windshield seal. About the only way that could be coming into the footwell vent and freezing like that is coming in through the windshield seal and running down into the defroster vent.

The snow must be a vent flap not closing all the way. You'll likely need to take out the glovebox and adjust the wire(s) so the flaps close tighter.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can’t for the life of me find a breach in the window seal…..the sealant is perfectly thick all over the leaky side and I didn’t find any water trail.

When there was a leak on the other side prior to windshield and seal replacement, there was always a very clear water trail. I guess I’ll have to keep looking out for one.

In other news, I can now attribute one of the newish noises at idle that I described a few weeks ago to something: the clutch. At high idle/warm-up I noted there was a “wuuhhhh….wuuhhhh” sound. Well, I’ve discovered that if I even only rest my foot on the clutch pedal, the noise goes away as does some (not all) of the vibration I’ve been feeling at idle.

Once warm, the noise becomes a dull tapping….like someone’s poking on the top of the engine lid with a broomstick. Again, it goes away with gentle pressure on the clutch pedal. I looked and the clutch cable wing nut isn’t tapping the tin and nothing is loose.

Obviously, something’s awry in the transmission, clutch, pressure plate, or flywheel.

Also, I hooked up the 02 sensor today. Still idling at 11.5 even with two vac leak areas fixed. I couldn’t find any others. Still cruising rich…..between 9.9 and 11.5 depending on how warmed up. Also, still going lean under hard acceleration. Cruising at 50 in 4th was at around 11…..speed up to 60 and it was in the mid 13’s until I level out the throttle and it riches up. In general, the more load, the leaner it gets…..even if I’m cruising at 50 in 4th with an AFR of 11 it leans out if I go up a hill or even a smallish incline. Leans even more if I give it more gas under those conditions.

I’m not inclined to lean out at the MAP b/c when I did that last time, it only got leaner under hard acceleration up into the 14’s and 15’s which obviously isn’t good for valve, head, or piston longevity. Though who knows if damage has already been done.

Any ideas?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Then, an intermittent squeak developed in one of the wheels....either the passenger front or rear. Kind of like the squeak when a soft brake line collapses internally and the drums rub the shoes. Except in my experience that sound is constant, not intermittent. Plus, none of the soft lines are even 3 years old yet. And none of the hub caps were warm like they usually are if a brake is rubbing. Would a bearing in need of re-packing intermittently squeak?


One thing to keep in mind is that the road salt does funny things to brakes. It is corrosive enough that if you get salty water on the brakes and then let the car sit, it can rust the pads to the rotors or the shoes to the drums and it can also corrode the rotors/drums enough to cause a squeak or other noises until you have some good brake use to grind the corrosion off. So if it went away after several brake uses that would be my bet.

On my current ride (GTI) I have to remember to not use the parking brake if I've just been driving in the salt as it will seize the pads to the rotors if left overnight like that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:

In other news, I can now attribute one of the newish noises at idle that I described a few weeks ago to something: the clutch. At high idle/warm-up I noted there was a “wuuhhhh….wuuhhhh” sound. Well, I’ve discovered that if I even only rest my foot on the clutch pedal, the noise goes away as does some (not all) of the vibration I’ve been feeling at idle.

Once warm, the noise becomes a dull tapping….like someone’s poking on the top of the engine lid with a broomstick. Again, it goes away with gentle pressure on the clutch pedal. I looked and the clutch cable wing nut isn’t tapping the tin and nothing is loose.

Obviously, something’s awry in the transmission, clutch, pressure plate, or flywheel.


My initial suspect would be the clutch release bearing (a/k/a throwout bearing). That would be the easiest/cheapest possibility I suspect but it's one of those famous $10 parts that you have to drop the engine to replace. Is the noise in time with engine rpm?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
D/A/N wrote:

In other news, I can now attribute one of the newish noises at idle that I described a few weeks ago to something: the clutch. At high idle/warm-up I noted there was a “wuuhhhh….wuuhhhh” sound. Well, I’ve discovered that if I even only rest my foot on the clutch pedal, the noise goes away as does some (not all) of the vibration I’ve been feeling at idle.

Once warm, the noise becomes a dull tapping….like someone’s poking on the top of the engine lid with a broomstick. Again, it goes away with gentle pressure on the clutch pedal. I looked and the clutch cable wing nut isn’t tapping the tin and nothing is loose.

Obviously, something’s awry in the transmission, clutch, pressure plate, or flywheel.


My initial suspect would be the clutch release bearing (a/k/a throwout bearing). That would be the easiest/cheapest possibility I suspect but it's one of those famous $10 parts that you have to drop the engine to replace. Is the noise in time with engine rpm?


It's actually not in time with the engine rpm.....kind of has its own rhythm. As for the wheel squeak, it was probably road salt. I didn't hear it at all yesterday or today!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Daniel:

Clutch disc, pressure plate, and release bearing was all replaced in July 2013 with new Fichtel und Sachs pieces... but with how replacement parts "quality" seems to go anymore, that's not saying it *can't* have an issue. I've had really good luck with the F&S stuff though- anything else I won't even look at.

On the strange AFR readings, I'm thinking it might be time to try a different MAP. I'd be inclined to say that intermittent brief spikes to the lean side aren't really a huge concern because you're not always at WOT, but the fact that these values are now different than your previous readings from some months ago tells us that something has changed, and we need to pinpoint just what.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the noises only happen in neutral at idle if that makes a difference. The first one, the deep “wuuhhhh….wuuhhhh” (I hate describing noises in writing!!) only happens during the high idle phase of warming up. The noise and the vibration are far too deep and big for it to be something as small as the throwout bearing.

However, once fully warm, the tapping sound could possibly be the throwout bearing but don't throwout bearing noises appear when you depress the clutch pedal and not while in neutral?

At the very least, we can say

--there are two noises and both go away with slight pressure on the clutch pedal

--both noises are associated with a vibration which is diminished by putting slight pressure on the clutch pedal

--in a healthy situation, depressing the clutch shouldn't significantly change the sounds or sensations at idle but it does for us and that isn't good.

--there are no significant noises while driving in any gear. If something big was loose I'm sure it'd make a huge racket while driving down the road.

Question:

--Could these noises be something in the transmission?

As for the MAP, I have a spare I bought off the classifieds but who knows the condition? I can try it out this weekend.....I'm sick of my clothes stinking like exhaust after a drive!!
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:

However, once fully warm, the tapping sound could possibly be the throwout bearing but don't throwout bearing noises appear when you depress the clutch pedal and not while in neutral?


Not nessessarily.The throwout bearing in my 65 Notch made noise in nuetral, and in gear with your foot off the clutch. The noise would go away when you stepped on the clutch pedal. I replaced it with a new bearing, and the noise disappeared.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Well, the noises only happen in neutral at idle if that makes a difference. The first one, the deep “wuuhhhh….wuuhhhh” (I hate describing noises in writing!!) only happens during the high idle phase of warming up. The noise and the vibration are far too deep and big for it to be something as small as the throwout bearing.

However, once fully warm, the tapping sound could possibly be the throwout bearing but don't throwout bearing noises appear when you depress the clutch pedal and not while in neutral?

At the very least, we can say

--there are two noises and both go away with slight pressure on the clutch pedal

--both noises are associated with a vibration which is diminished by putting slight pressure on the clutch pedal

--in a healthy situation, depressing the clutch shouldn't significantly change the sounds or sensations at idle but it does for us and that isn't good.

--there are no significant noises while driving in any gear. If something big was loose I'm sure it'd make a huge racket while driving down the road.

Question:

--Could these noises be something in the transmission?

As for the MAP, I have a spare I bought off the classifieds but who knows the condition? I can try it out this weekend.....I'm sick of my clothes stinking like exhaust after a drive!!


Eau de Auspuff Cologne For Men
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
D/A/N wrote:
Well, the noises only happen in neutral at idle if that makes a difference. The first one, the deep “wuuhhhh….wuuhhhh” (I hate describing noises in writing!!) only happens during the high idle phase of warming up. The noise and the vibration are far too deep and big for it to be something as small as the throwout bearing.

However, once fully warm, the tapping sound could possibly be the throwout bearing but don't throwout bearing noises appear when you depress the clutch pedal and not while in neutral?

At the very least, we can say

--there are two noises and both go away with slight pressure on the clutch pedal

--both noises are associated with a vibration which is diminished by putting slight pressure on the clutch pedal

--in a healthy situation, depressing the clutch shouldn't significantly change the sounds or sensations at idle but it does for us and that isn't good.

--there are no significant noises while driving in any gear. If something big was loose I'm sure it'd make a huge racket while driving down the road.

Question:

--Could these noises be something in the transmission?

As for the MAP, I have a spare I bought off the classifieds but who knows the condition? I can try it out this weekend.....I'm sick of my clothes stinking like exhaust after a drive!!


Eau de Auspuff Cologne For Men


Yeah, it leaves you dizzy and smelling like the Port Authority Bus Terminal at rush hour!

As for this potential throwout bearing problem.....how urgent is it? The noises and vibrations are annoying, but is there an imminent bad situation? And is there any way to tell with more certainty that it's the throwout bearing or not? We've got enough snow, slush, and ice on the street to make dropping the engine a very cold and wet chore and it would really really suck if we did all that and the bearing was fine. I figure we can do something simple first like adjust the free play in the pedal to see if that helps, but otherwise I don't have any ideas.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
D/A/N wrote:
Well, the noises only happen in neutral at idle if that makes a difference. The first one, the deep “wuuhhhh….wuuhhhh” (I hate describing noises in writing!!) only happens during the high idle phase of warming up. The noise and the vibration are far too deep and big for it to be something as small as the throwout bearing.

However, once fully warm, the tapping sound could possibly be the throwout bearing but don't throwout bearing noises appear when you depress the clutch pedal and not while in neutral?

At the very least, we can say

--there are two noises and both go away with slight pressure on the clutch pedal

--both noises are associated with a vibration which is diminished by putting slight pressure on the clutch pedal

--in a healthy situation, depressing the clutch shouldn't significantly change the sounds or sensations at idle but it does for us and that isn't good.

--there are no significant noises while driving in any gear. If something big was loose I'm sure it'd make a huge racket while driving down the road.

Question:

--Could these noises be something in the transmission?

As for the MAP, I have a spare I bought off the classifieds but who knows the condition? I can try it out this weekend.....I'm sick of my clothes stinking like exhaust after a drive!!


Eau de Auspuff Cologne For Men


Yeah, it leaves you dizzy and smelling like the Port Authority Bus Terminal at rush hour!

As for this potential throwout bearing problem.....how urgent is it? The noises and vibrations are annoying, but is there an imminent bad situation? And is there any way to tell with more certainty that it's the throwout bearing or not? We've got enough snow, slush, and ice on the street to make dropping the engine a very cold and wet chore and it would really really suck if we did all that and the bearing was fine. I figure we can do something simple first like adjust the free play in the pedal to see if that helps, but otherwise I don't have any ideas.


Yup, adjust some of the free play out of the cable. The existing bearing will probably last a very long time, but it'll just make noise. What's probably happened, is that it's lost some of it's grease, which is why it's making noise. Wink
The one in Bob's Notch went 3 or 4 years before he decided to replace it. Shocked It was still doing the job, but the noise was bothering him. Wink
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New York was the first state to require license plates, back in 1901. In those days, you had to make your own. Sears even sold Kits! Massachusetts was the first state to issue them in 1903.
Source: Automobile Magazine, Nov. 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Well, the noises only happen in neutral at idle if that makes a difference. The first one, the deep “wuuhhhh….wuuhhhh” (I hate describing noises in writing!!) only happens during the high idle phase of warming up. The noise and the vibration are far too deep and big for it to be something as small as the throwout bearing.


One thing to check would be the return spring back at the bell housing. This spring is commonly broken, so the throwout bearing doesn't get pulled away from the pressure plate when you release the clutch pedal. It's not really applying any pressure at that point, but it will continue to bounce around against the release ring. This isn't fatal, but I suspect it causes unnecessary wear on the throwout bearing.

If the spring is broken, the halves of the old spring will be loose around the release arm. You can "unthread" them and thread a new one on in its place. Getting the new one installed takes some persuation and a final pull/lever using a small box wrench to lever the top end around the release arm.

I've usually done this with the clutch cable detached and nothing else disassembled, but I THINK this isn't necessary, so next time I'd try to do it without taking anything apart, other than the old spring.

PS: Note that there are at least 3 different versions of this spring. You have to get the right one for your '69.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so I'll add checking the spring to the list of what to look for.

Another thing to note in case it supports or refutes any of the theories above......the shifter vibrates and buzzes at idle but it, too, gets quiet and stops moving when I apply pressure to the clutch pedal. Would issues at the back of the trans (t/o bearing, spring, etc.) cause vibrations all the way up through to the shifter?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Ok, so I'll add checking the spring to the list of what to look for.

Another thing to note in case it supports or refutes any of the theories above......the shifter vibrates and buzzes at idle but it, too, gets quiet and stops moving when I apply pressure to the clutch pedal. Would issues at the back of the trans (t/o bearing, spring, etc.) cause vibrations all the way up through to the shifter?

Okay, check the return spring, but also check the 4 bolts that hold the engine and tranny together.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jadney wrote:
D/A/N wrote:
Ok, so I'll add checking the spring to the list of what to look for.

Another thing to note in case it supports or refutes any of the theories above......the shifter vibrates and buzzes at idle but it, too, gets quiet and stops moving when I apply pressure to the clutch pedal. Would issues at the back of the trans (t/o bearing, spring, etc.) cause vibrations all the way up through to the shifter?

Okay, check the return spring, but also check the 4 bolts that hold the engine and tranny together.


I checked the return spring and it looks fine. I checked the lower engine/trans nuts and they were ok. I was laying in snow and slush so I didn't stay long enough to check the top 2. I also adjusted some free play out of the clutch pedal. We were at about 1" but I won't be driving until tomorrow so I won't know until then if the adjustment had any effect.

Also, just for fun, we tried our spare "B" MAP sensor.....still has the epoxy over the adjusting screw so it hasn't been adjusted before. Initial idle was far less rough than with the other MAP; the AFR was 11+ whereas it's in the low 10's on the other one. Problem was, as we got further into warming up and the idle got higher, the AFR kept leaning out. I finally turned the engine off when it got to 18.5 which is so lean it isn't even funny and I figured why bother even driving it like that. So I guess we need to try another unadulterated MAP if we're going to keep experimenting.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:

Also, just for fun, we tried our spare "B" MAP sensor.....still has the epoxy over the adjusting screw so it hasn't been adjusted before. Initial idle was far less rough than with the other MAP; the AFR was 11+ whereas it's in the low 10's on the other one. Problem was, as we got further into warming up and the idle got higher, the AFR kept leaning out. I finally turned the engine off when it got to 18.5 which is so lean it isn't even funny and I figured why bother even driving it like that. So I guess we need to try another unadulterated MAP if we're going to keep experimenting.


Dan, keep in mind that as the engine warms up, TS1's (head temp sensor) ohms are dropping, leaning out the mixture as the engine warms up. That "untampered MPS" might be the 1 to use, but you might need to add a 200 ohm resistor to TS1 for everything to settle out correctly. You might actually want to drive around with your sniffer in place, and see how things really are.
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64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
D/A/N wrote:

Also, just for fun, we tried our spare "B" MAP sensor.....still has the epoxy over the adjusting screw so it hasn't been adjusted before. Initial idle was far less rough than with the other MAP; the AFR was 11+ whereas it's in the low 10's on the other one. Problem was, as we got further into warming up and the idle got higher, the AFR kept leaning out. I finally turned the engine off when it got to 18.5 which is so lean it isn't even funny and I figured why bother even driving it like that. So I guess we need to try another unadulterated MAP if we're going to keep experimenting.


Dan, keep in mind that as the engine warms up, TS1's (head temp sensor) ohms are dropping, leaning out the mixture as the engine warms up. That "untampered MPS" might be the 1 to use, but you might need to add a 200 ohm resistor to TS1 for everything to settle out correctly. You might actually want to drive around with your sniffer in place, and see how things really are.


I was also going to suggest unplugging TS1 when it goes lean and seeing what that does... and also- how sure are we that the gauge readings themselves are accurate?
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D/A/N
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Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
D/A/N wrote:

Also, just for fun, we tried our spare "B" MAP sensor.....still has the epoxy over the adjusting screw so it hasn't been adjusted before. Initial idle was far less rough than with the other MAP; the AFR was 11+ whereas it's in the low 10's on the other one. Problem was, as we got further into warming up and the idle got higher, the AFR kept leaning out. I finally turned the engine off when it got to 18.5 which is so lean it isn't even funny and I figured why bother even driving it like that. So I guess we need to try another unadulterated MAP if we're going to keep experimenting.


Dan, keep in mind that as the engine warms up, TS1's (head temp sensor) ohms are dropping, leaning out the mixture as the engine warms up. That "untampered MPS" might be the 1 to use, but you might need to add a 200 ohm resistor to TS1 for everything to settle out correctly. You might actually want to drive around with your sniffer in place, and see how things really are.


Interesting.....I was thinking that since TS1 ohm'd out okay that I didn't have to take it into consideration but I see what you mean.

I also didn't bother driving around with this new MAP connected b/c I have to use the car for commuting all week and didn't think it wise to run experiments while doing so since I need it to get me back and forth from work w/o any issues other than the already known ones.

I've heard a lot about people using resistors with TS1, but I've never actually seen what that looks like....as in exactly how is the wiring augmented, where is the resistor placed, how is it protected from the elements, etc.
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