'69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures

[Tram]

[jadney]

[Tram]

[D/A/N]

A little update from vacationland: we checked the valves again at 500 miles and found that the clearances on the 1/2 side had shrunk from .008 to .006 and the exhaust on #2 was about .005 so we opened that one up and left the others. All of the valves on the 3/4 side (the always tighter side) were still at .008!! Go figure....

All told, the thing has been driving really well. We have a small oil leak somewhere thats been causing some stinky heater boxes but it doesnt seem to be from the valve covers which are tight and dry. Haven't jacked it up to explore further but I suspect a pushrod tube seal.

The only incident so far happened yesterday.....After stopping at a store, the starter wouldn't crank...just like a few weeks ago after putting the motor in. Turn the key and nothing doing. Jessica fiddled with the battery cables, but unlike last time that didn't do anything. Tried listening for a click at the solenoid but the parking lot was too loud. So she crawled under the car with a jumper wire. When she jumped terminals, the starter spun and sparked. Then, we were able to use the key to start it and we've been fine since. However, it seems like theres definitely a problem brewing.

Here's the question: the fact that the starter spun when jumped would suggest the switch is bad, but after jumping the terminals, the key worked. So which is the problem, the starter or the ignition switch?

[ataraxia]

Without knowing anything else I'd say your starter is about to die.

OR

Wires to/from starter are loose (ground?)

[sjbartnik]

Sounds like the notorious hot/sticky solenoid problem.

You may wish to install a relay for the solenoid if you don't have one already.

You may also want to make sure the ground strap between the transaxle and body is intact and making good electrical contact.

Your starter motor itself is probably fine but the solenoid may be gummed up with old dried grease and be sluggish.

It's commonly done (especially on Buses) to wire a relay in so that the current to trip the solenoid doesn't have to go all the way through the ignition switch and back. Instead the wire from the ignition switch is used to trip a relay with then shunts power directly to the solenoid from the battery which is, of course, right there.

That may buy you some time and make hot starts easier.

It fixes the symptom though and not really the problem. You'll have to check out your ignition switch (measure voltage drop through it) and all the wiring in the circuit and if no luck there you may have to pull the solenoid and clean it.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

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[Erik G]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's funny that a lot of cheap ass VW people ( ) will tell you not to do the relay, but over in the big $$$$ Porsche world, it's ok and even encouraged and recommended to add one.
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[KTPhil]

My objection is that most of those problems are due to degraded wire terminals. Adding half a dozen more terminals seems like a step backwards, especially those installations done under the car with exposed wires and connectors. I expect that after a few short years, the failure rate is higher due to the added failure points.

An old VW axiom: "What isn't there can't break."

I prefer to fix the root cause by cleaning or replacing the degraded connections.

On the other hand, for those models with rare and obsolete ignition switches (like Euro cars with ignition locks or old Type 3 switches, or a one-year-only unit like the '71, or an old Porsche), it may make sense to prolong the life of this otherwise high-current device that has a history of degradation and eventual failure. As posted, using this circuit merely to trip a relay means its contacts will last longer. Overall reliability will be reduced, but the gain in saving a nearly irreplaceable component is sometimes worth the trade-off.

Just be sure you use good connectors and install the relay under the back seat, not under the floorpan where road splash and dirt will cause failure.

[Bobnotch]

[D/A/N]

So we're back from hiking and climbing the high peaks of the Adirondacks. Here's a gratuitous vacation photo taken at 4700', somewhere above our backwoods primitive camp. It was quite a hike.

All told, we put just short of 1,100 miles on the car without any incident other than the one bout of not starting. Clearly, that's an intermittent issue as we drove over 220 miles today in 85* temps and stopped at rest stops and re-started the car without issue. The starter might have sounded a little slow, but I was more than likely paying too much attention. I can't tell if it's worth doing anything about it. This also happened once during the summer on our Type 1 about 3 or 4 years ago and not at all again since . I should add that during the summer, it usually takes 2 tries to start the car no matter how many times I might prime the fuel pump on the first start of the day. During cool weather, it always starts on one turn of the key.

Geo....I hear you about maybe running this motor into the ground and saving $$ for other stuff, but it's too late to turn back now on the new motor. Plus, what happens if/when this one gives out? If we'd had more time, since the end play was good maybe I could have refreshed the rod bearings, cam, and lifters, but that wasn't to be. Here's a pic of the lifters right before we put in the p/c's. It's clear that they're worn and aren't in it for the long haul

[D/A/N]

Ok, so we broke down the busted motor yesterday and have been doing some poking around and exploring and have some interesting pics and info. First of all, the center main is steel backed and is not .040, but STD. All the rest were non-magnetic and had no discernible #'s on them

Then, on both the #1 and #2 mains, the oil holes in the bearings don't match the holes in the case at all. Though you can see the imprint on the case, I also circled where the holes make contact. Here's one on #1.

And here's the other

Here's the one on the center main. Hard to believe there's less than 20k miles on that bearing!

Here's damage to the dowel pin hole on the #1 main

And here's a shot of the corresponding area in the case. Also note the huge ridge in the bearing saddle and all of those "scuff" marks

The outer surface of the bearing is all scratched up too

The center main also had a ridge but not as big as #1...unfortunately, no pic. The 3 and 4 saddles were smooth and nice though. Only a pic of 3:

[Tram]

1. The bearing you are showing is a Metaleve manufactured in 6.2009 with a standard INSIDE diameter for your standard crank.

This is a 40 over main set- why there is a steel backed in there is probably because we've been having issues with mismatched 40 over bearings in the same box.

Mike the outsides- that is where your oversize is.

2. As to the oil hole lineup- some years ago, the bearing manufacturers went from having the oil groove on the inside of the bearing to the outside- more universal fitment that way. The groove on the outside acts as an oil passageway to the hole in the bearing.

If the bearing wears or starts 'walking", you lose lubrication, though... and everything I see points to that being exactly the case.

That original case looks savable, though.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.

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[jadney]

Dan,

I don't see anything in your photos that's unexpected. The bearings are Metl Leve, a Brazilian brand that has always worked perfectly for me. Everything here is consistent with the bearing(s?) coming loose and wearing into the case. The oil holes in the bearings aren't expected to line up with the oil holes in the case. The holes in the case are drilled where they must be to access the pressure galleys in the case. The oil holes in the bearings are where they need to be to feed the bearing in a low pressure area. The groove around the OD of the bearing is there to connect these 2 different places.

The rotation of the crank pumps oil around in the space between the bearing and the journal. The action of the pistons and rods tends to push the crank sideways, L & R, creating tight areas that the oil gets pumped into, generating high oil pressure in exactly the places where it's needed. This pressure is MUCH higher than the pump output pressure and is what makes a plain journal bearing such an excellent bearing. This pressure keeps the journal from actually contacting the bearing, except when the engine first starts up and takes a few seconds before oil gets fed into the bearing.

It's "normal" to find a ridge under the #2 bearing, because the crank tends to flex and beat that bearing out against the case. This is especially a problem if the engine has been run at high rpm. It's not "normal" to see this in an engine with this few miles.

Another place you can look for signs of high rpm running are the pushrods. At high rpm they also tend to flex. You can see signs of this as brite wear rings where they rubbed as they flexed. If you see such a ring on just one pushrod, that probably means a pushrod tube/seal that was misaligned, but if they all show these wear rings then this would be high rpm running.

If the pushrods don't show these rings, it would be a good idea to check the crank to make sure it's not cracked. A crack would probably not be visible, but there are tests to find them. The simple way to do this is to remove EVERYTHING from the crank, suspend it from one finger under one of the crank throws, and tap an unimportant part with a hammer. It should ring like a bell. If it just goes CLUNK, then there's a crack somewhere, and that may have caused it to flex more than normal. They do spontaneously develop cracks, but I've only ever found one. I knew someone else who had the crack progress and completely break.

The hard part about this test is that you have to remove everything to do it. That means removing the cam and timing gear, and the Woodruff keys under them. That takes special tooling. I've got the tooling, but you might be able to find someone in Brooklyn who also still has it.

The elongated dowel hole in the bearing is normal once the bearing has gotten loose.

Regarding your starter experience, it's something that just seems to happen occasionally, especially with AT cars. If it happens more frequently, I'd take the brush end cover off the starter and clean out the brush "dirt" that accumulates. I've occasionally found that the brushes get stuck in their slides and can't slip forward to make good contact with the commutator. High resistance there means that the pull-in winding in the solenoid can't work, so the solenoid doesn't pull in and there's no click and no starter action.

Of course there are other possibilities. I'm not against the relay approach (especially for '71s) but I would put it under the back seat, not out in the weather under the car. For '71s, one of these days I'll finish the relay mod that's been in the back of my mind for a long time.
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Jim Adney
50+ years of VW Type 3 experience
Specializing in VW Type 3 parts and service

[jadney]

[Tram]

One thing I'd like to know from D/A/N: Did the short block replacement solve the dancing shifter issue?

I'd also like to know if you find a cracked crank because then we'd have a definite answer to what did all this unless it's a mismatched set of 40 over bearings. The weird thing about the mismatched bearing theory, though, is how long this engine lasted- usually the "problem bearings" don't seem to survive much more than a few hundred miles from what we've been hearing.

The cracked crank theory actually makes the most sense to me at this point. It'll be interesting to see if the "ring test" proves this wrong.
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[D/A/N]

I haven't had a chance to mic the bearings yet, but tomorrow should be a good opportunity and I'll post the results. I also have the tools necessary to remove the gears and woodruff keys from the crank and can do the crack test.

The new short block has definitely stopped the dancing shifter issue. It drives like "normal"....certain odd harmonics from the motor have vanished, there aren't any weird vibrations, and everything feels much smoother, from driving to shifting.

The weird thing is that we noticed all of the weird vibrations and shifter stuff after only 4-6 weeks of driving over a year ago and it still held up for more than 14k miles!

[Tram]

[D/A/N]