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'69 FI Squareback: The Continuing (Mis)Adventures
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, i had an intermittent 'no run' situation that seemed to be ignition related.
The big black wire that runs from the coil up to the ignition switch (a.k.a. "Old Crispy"), and the switch itself, aren't exactly stone reliable after nearly 50 years.

I ran an extra wire from the coil up to under the dash, where i could reach it and plug it in if there was ever another flame out.

Just another dumb pet trick that can eliminate one or two likely culprits..

Much more satifying to kick it as HARD as you can as many times as you can!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:

I'm not feeling to confident in the MPS at the moment. We have 2 more, one NOS from Jim which I don't want to touch and another used one with epoxy still in it. What's a good technique for getting the epoxy out so we can try running that sensor and see if it can hold an adjustment?


I'm pretty sure I've got an early style MPS here with the epoxy still in it (I saw it last week while looking for something else). I'll send it to you for free, but you'll have to PM me your mailing address.
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D/A/N
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob, you've got PM!

This stupid high idle thing is back less than 24 hrs later. Timing and dwell are still fine, the idle speed screw/nut assembly is still tight, the accelerator cable bowden tube is connected and fine, and the cable still doesn't seem to be hanging up anywhere. Where to look next?

Clatter, is this a good time to start kicking the hell out of the car?
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, don't y'all make me get out mah KICKIN' FOOT!!!!

I also
Whisper "I'M going to crush you..." Lightly to it over and over.

Take your cell phone, and call different junkyards, ask if they have some way where you can operate the crusher. See if they do their crushing or shredding on-site, and if there is some way you can be the one to push the button.
Make sure your car is nearby when you make these calls.

Whenever my kids are fighting in the back of the car and drive me nuts, I stop my the fire station and see if this is one of my hose places where you can surrender an unwanted child.

So,
Same thing, kinda..

Also,
There was a place where somebody dented you recently, right?
So maybe this is a good place to start the kickage.
That spot still has to be a bit tender if it's not healed yet,
Plus, it won't leave any marks that the authorities might be suspicious of...
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
There was a place where somebody dented you recently, right?
So maybe this is a good place to start the kickage.
That spot still has to be a bit tender if it's not healed yet,


I disagree. As in the movie Marathon Man ...

"...we need to find a fresh nerve"
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Tram
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Bob, you've got PM!

This stupid high idle thing is back less than 24 hrs later. Timing and dwell are still fine, the idle speed screw/nut assembly is still tight, the accelerator cable bowden tube is connected and fine, and the cable still doesn't seem to be hanging up anywhere. Where to look next?

Clatter, is this a good time to start kicking the hell out of the car?


Vacuum line fall off the pressure switch?
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D/A/N
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
D/A/N wrote:
Bob, you've got PM!

This stupid high idle thing is back less than 24 hrs later. Timing and dwell are still fine, the idle speed screw/nut assembly is still tight, the accelerator cable bowden tube is connected and fine, and the cable still doesn't seem to be hanging up anywhere. Where to look next?

Clatter, is this a good time to start kicking the hell out of the car?


Vacuum line fall off the pressure switch?


Nah, it's still there and clamped tightly on both ends. I'll triple check the idle speed screw and nut though. Any other ideas?

Also, Jessica got it in her head to take the epoxy out of one of our spare MPS's but it's not a very graceful job. What tool(s) are best for this? And does the screw have to be removed to get any epoxy out from beneath it?
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Tram
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
D/A/N wrote:
Bob, you've got PM!

This stupid high idle thing is back less than 24 hrs later. Timing and dwell are still fine, the idle speed screw/nut assembly is still tight, the accelerator cable bowden tube is connected and fine, and the cable still doesn't seem to be hanging up anywhere. Where to look next?

Clatter, is this a good time to start kicking the hell out of the car?


Vacuum line fall off the pressure switch?


Nah, it's still there and clamped tightly on both ends. I'll triple check the idle speed screw and nut though. Any other ideas?

Also, Jessica got it in her head to take the epoxy out of one of our spare MPS's but it's not a very graceful job. What tool(s) are best for this? And does the screw have to be removed to get any epoxy out from beneath it?


I remove the top casing and heat the epoxy with a propane torch to make it adjustable, then reassemble and adjust away!
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D/A/N
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the high idle problem is officially intermittent now which is really annoying. I guess the cable must be hanging up somewhere and we just can't find it Mad.

In other news, we FINALLY made a long overdue adjustment to the steering box at the large lock net and recessed "nut", not the 17mm nut and set screw. Big difference in diminishing steering wheel goofiness but I had to go pretty damn far and tight on the adjustment. Makes me think the box is kind of worn out.

And finally a new addition to the "What The Hell Else Can Go Wrong?" file is that the undercoating is quitting Rolling Eyes. A few months ago, I noticed there were a few tiny nicks in it, but since then it's just missing in some sections while in others you can see it peeling off, like on the left towards the rear of the car

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's some that was about to fall off. On the left piece, it looks more like paint than the thick tar-like stuff you usually see on truck beds. The piece on the right shows the opposite side which is really shiny and kind of slick. Altogether, it has the feel of thin vinyl. Strange stuff.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Grinding all this shit off, treating the rust that has formed, prepping the surface, and brushing on a new round of undercoating (not to mention buying the supplies) is among the last things I want to do with the end of my summer and my money. Anyone have any ideas about what might be best to do here? I remember this guy from when I was a kid, but he's not around anymore!

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Tram
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take it to a car wash with a blaster wand, put it up on stands, and blast the crap out of it till you get all the flakes off.

Let it dry out a couple days and then treat the surface rust areas with this:
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/16/160bfffe-d5e1-4831-98f3-e31d4d40c332_300.jpg

A day or so later, re- coat the pan with spray on bedliner like this:
http://www.plastikote.com/products/Truck%20Bed%20Liner/Truck-Bed-Liner-Spray.html

OR- if it looks like the clear bumpy stuff we used in the fender wells is better, I can send you a couple cans of that if I still have some.

Looks like none of the products we use out here for preservation work on your salted roads... sigh. no way of knowing that because here they don't salt and the stuff wears like iron.

The bright side of this is that I'd way rather see it flake off than just sag a little and trap moisture and salt underneath- that's what happened when these cars were new and "rustproofed"- they actually rusted worse after a couple years. The only really effective rustproofing was a yearly oil spray- and the days of being able to do that are long gone.

It shouldn't cost a lot or take a lot of time to do this. Maybe it needs to be an end of summer maintenance task.

There are more aggressive rust treatments on the market (like Eastwood), but these tend to work well only on heavily rusted surfaces. They're a complete waste on light surface rust.

Get yourself a respirator like this:
http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/H-3391/Dust-Ma...lsrc=aw.ds

Wear eye protection too when you are under the car.

LMK if you want me to check into more of the clear.
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Tram
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On your intermittent high idle, when it does this pinch the AAR line and see if it drops back down to normal. If that doesn't work, loosen the cable clamp at the throttle body to see if it is indeed the cable hanging up.
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jadney
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
This stupid high idle thing is back less than 24 hrs later. Timing and dwell are still fine, the idle speed screw/nut assembly is still tight, the accelerator cable bowden tube is connected and fine, and the cable still doesn't seem to be hanging up anywhere. Where to look next?

If you find that this is changing regularly, here are 2 things you can try. Do whichever is easier first.

1) Connect a voltmeter (preferably analog because a moving needle makes trends MUCH easier to spot) between the fuel pump relay (the terminal that has the red wire leading to the fuel pump) and ground. Put the meter where you can glance at it while driving. It should sit around 14 V all the time, except it's okay if it drops a bit when you slow down to idle. If you see it slipping down while you're driving, then there's either a problem with the wiring somewhere, or the relay is bad. If it climbs up close to 15 V or above, you have a voltage regulator problem.

2) Connect a long fuel hose to the test port between the 1 & 2 injectors. Run that hose up front to a gauge that you can glance at while you're driving. For your '69 it should hold steady at 28-29 psi whenever the engine is running. If it slips down, you have a pump, filter, relay or wiring problem. If it increases, you have a fuel pressure regulator problem or a kink in a return hose somewhere.

I've never done the extensive work like you've done with the A/F meter, but I've also never had a '68-9 pressure sensor that needed to be adjusted, at least since the B brains came out. If your A/F ratio is changing this much, I suspect other problems, that adjusting the sensor won't cure.

Glad you had a black Bosch coil. I checked my notes and I see that both the black and blue coils seemed to have the same 3 Ohm primary. The difference was in the inductance, not the resistance. Still, the black one is the better choice for almost anyone.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it looks more like paint than the thick tar-like stuff you usually see on truck beds. The piece on the right shows the opposite side which is really shiny and kind of slick. Altogether, it has the feel of thin vinyl. Strange stuff.


Same as the dealer applied undercoat that was on my 65. some was really stuck, some came off in sheets. The $14.00 needle scaler attachment was the best thing I found for removing loose dry stuff. We were repainting anyways so nicks in the paint were no big deal.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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D/A/N
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the tips on the undercoating. I have a few other questions I want to ask about it but a few more pressing automotive matters have come up. Fear not, misadventure is never far!! Here's a lengthy what's up:

1)The intermittent high idle is the AAR after all. I pinched off the hose the other day when the idle suddenly went high and as I tightened the pincher the idle dropped with each turn until it went back to normal. Not sure why I didn't catch this before as I tried removing and plugging and also blowing through the hose w/ no results. In any case, we have a freshly rebuilt and recalibrated AAR from Jim which we can throw in. Anyone ever experience an intermittently open AAR before? And this one was last serviced only two years ago, so why did it go crappy already?

2) A few days ago, for fun, I was trying to replicate our random shut down issue by jiggling the key in the ignition. I was unable to reproduce it. However, I was able to remove the key from the ignition and the car continued to run. What's that all about?

3) Today, we weren't trying to replicate our random shut down issue but it happened anyway and it wasn't any fun!! 2.5 hour drive in 85* temps. About 45 minutes from home, there was a sudden miss around 50mph in 4th.....as if I'd temporarily taken my foot off the gas. About ten minutes later, same thing followed by what seemed like a slight loss of power. No more missing for about a half hour. I figured we'd be checking the fuel pressure and ignition when we got home to see if anything was awry. Then, about 15 mins from home another miss and about 3 minutes later another one. About 2 minutes after that, the motor cut out. Just died. Idiot lights were on though.

Of course this was right in front of Laguardia Airport with planes taking off and landing over our heads but thankfully we were at the last wide piece of shoulder for about 3/4 of a mile! 20 feet further along and we would have been the cause of a huge traffic jam.

Tried to start. No dice. Relays clicked and fuel pump whirred. Tried again. Nope. Waited a few minutes and tried again. Started up but stalled after 5 seconds then nothing.

Naturally, the car is full of crap from a week of camping so we empty it out on the side of the road and crack the engine lid. I expected to be hit in the face by a blast of heat but it was reasonably cool in there. No connections were loose. The only thing wrong was that the coil was EXTREMELY HOT. Couldn't touch it for more than a split second.....by far the HOTTEST thing in the engine bay. Since that was the only "smoking gun" I figured why not just put in another coil (before leaving I put one in the trunk...just in case). To remove the old one, we had to use a silicone oven mitt we carry for cooking at campsites....it was too hot to touch even through a heap of rags.

Car started right up with the replacement coil and we got home with renewed power and no issues!!! When we parked, I checked and this coil too was EXTREMELY HOT even though we'd only driven about 15 minutes with it. So much hotter than anything else in there.

Now we've had a blue Beru coil, a Bosch black, and a Bosch blue all get blazing hot on us. So what causes coils to overheat? Ignition switch, condenser, other? Is "old crispy" (as Clatter affectionately calls the wire from ignition to coil) going bad? And an overheated coil could cause the ignition to cut off, yes?

FWIW, when Jessica had the random cut off a few weeks ago, it wasn't preceded by missing but the other symptoms were the same (no start, then start but stall, etc.)
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the resistance of your spark plug wire set in spec?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was having very similar issues this past week and it turned out that the ground wire inside the distributor that runs from the body to the points plate had connectivity issues. I checked it by connecting a static timing light, rotating the engine until the timing light lit up, and then fiddled around with the wire and the light went from on to off based on the position of the ground wire. Just something to check.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Classic "Old Crispy" behavior...

Check all of the wires that feed off of the hot side of the coil.
Because two coils have done the same thing, I'll bet you a dozen donuts that a wire somehow connected to the coil is finding ground somewhere.

It can be melted way up inside the harness, even.
So, feel Old Crispy, see if she doesn't feel kind of lumpy going in and out of the harness..
If it's lumpy, it's been hot.
It can ground out up by the ignition switch, or any of that stuff that goes off of the coil - like the backup lights, and all kind of stupid stuff those lazyasses at VW just decided to plug into the coil + side.

Not just Krispy Kremes, either.
I want Dunkins or Winchells or something...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the tips, guys. We only had a chance to check the plug wires, not the dist. ground wire. Incidentally, we've had issues with a bad ground in the dist. on our Type 1 but the symptoms were different. In any case, the wires were thus:

#1 1150 Ω
#2 1020 Ω
#3 1110 Ω
#4 1100 Ω
Coil wire: 655 Ω

That coil wire is obviously a good 350 Ω below spec, but could it be the culprit? Or is that wire not supposed to be as high as the others anyway?

Clatter, we'll check on "Old Crispy" tomorrow. I'd love to have to buy you Winchells, but these east coast folks - Daniel included - don't know about those donuts! Makes my CA heart smile a little to remember those triangular yellow signs Smile NYC is a Dunkin empire......but wait...you're telling me that you'd rather have a brand name instead of one of the $20 artisanal donuts you can get by the Mission??
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neena wrote:
NYC is a Dunkin empire.


Gross. Aren't you over there by Peter Pan? If you haven't been there yet, get yourself over there pronto.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
neena wrote:
NYC is a Dunkin empire.


Gross. Aren't you over there by Peter Pan? If you haven't been there yet, get yourself over there pronto.


Gross is right - I meant that as a criticism of the city Very Happy

Of course we know Peter Pan - Daniel has lived in this neighborhood since the late 90s! We actually rarely eat donuts - I was just feeling sentimental about the Winchells logo. Apparently there's a breakaway place on Nassau Avenue that some guy from Peter Pan opened - we've yet to try it. Of course, there's always Dough, which is closer to you...

I suddenly feel like Homer Simpson...
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