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1954 Split Window Dilemma
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oldscooldude
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

First and foremost,

Thanks to the forum and its members; I have learnt a lot just by searching and reading the immense wealth of info you all share.

I come to you with a dilemma. I have put a down payment on a 1954 split window. You read that correct. I know they were supposedly only produced until March 1953. Some people have told me that they actually produced some into 1954 with the remnants of parts that were available. I have searched for 1954 models and have come up mainly empty handed. I did find a youtube video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV7oKezhXW0 )on a 1954 for sale with a couple of guys discussing whether it was real or not in German. My google translator seems to work for most part but not 100%. I may be saw another one labeled a 54 for sale as a split window after hours of searching.

The owner gave me a copy of the VW certificates in German (owner lives in Germany) and both engine and chassis check out as original. They do coincide with the numbers based on the tables I found here on the forums. Car was built on the 28th of September 1954 and left the factory in October of that year for export to South America. Model is 113 VW Limousine Export-Modell so its a sedan. After translating the certificate I was unable to see anywhere that says if it is oval or split window. Not sure if it matters Engine is 30 PS 1,2 Liter. I also researched every option and matched to the description but none identifies window either. One cool thing I found is that it came with the leatherette. Color info was not found but appears to be dark blue.

I went through old magazines, literature and excerpts but found very little. Can someone shed some light on this please? Thank you for your time and knowledge, I really appreciate it.
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Mr. OGPaint
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

If the car was made in September of 1954 it is absolutely with 100% certainty an Oval Window car.

Mistakenly I have encountered others who refer to split versus oval window Beetles in 1953 as being an "option". Truth is, VW produced Split Window Beetle known as Zwitters in early 1953 and late 1952. These cars had the split window feature but shared most other features of the car with the new Oval window design. Once the zwitter split window was discontinued in March of 1953 they immediately began producing Oval window cars....there was no cross over, and they never offered the split rear window feature again once production of the Oval window began.

Good luck with the purchase
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oldscooldude
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

Mr. OGPaint wrote:
If the car was made in September of 1954 it is absolutely with 100% certainty an Oval Window car.

Mistakenly I have encountered others who refer to split versus oval window Beetles in 1953 as being an "option". Truth is, VW produced Split Window Beetle known as Zwitters in early 1953 and late 1952. These cars had the split window feature but shared most other features of the car with the new Oval window design. Once the zwitter split window was discontinued in March of 1953 they immediately began producing Oval window cars....there was no cross over, and they never offered the split rear window feature again once production of the Oval window began.

Good luck with the purchase


Patrick, thank you so much for the information. By looking at the pictures on the car it is evident it is a split window, the tail light have the heart design, the steering wheel is the bat design and it has the double ashtray. However, based on your info that either means that the split window was either added on (would not want it if that's the case) or something is funky with the numbers on the car, correct?

Thanks again for your valuable insight.
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Mr. OGPaint
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

I agree, something is amiss. Either the car is modified or the numbers and birth certificate do not match somehow to the features you are looking at
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

Every now and then, these out-of-sequence cars or cars with discontinued characteristics show up, and the argument is always that the factory had leftover parts they used up. The VW factory by 1953 was a well oiled machine, producing hundreds of cars per day. Stamping of parts was done to detailed order sheets. Especially large items like roofs and doors were never saved execpt for spare parts allowance. A few hundred roofs were probable left over, intentionally, on the night the change to oval window occured, they were driven off by a plattenwagen and stored for future sale as spare parts. There is no chance any of these were used in later production for logistic reasons.

There are a few occurences of early traits continuing being installed on the standard models after the deluxe had received updates. Mechanical brakes, three-spoke steering wheel, blade bumpers spring to mind. But these were planned and continous uses, not just "using up" stock.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

Please post some pictures .... is it possible to see welding in the rear window zone (inside or outside) ? Is headliner original and perfect ?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

Thank you guys for all the replies and info. I am attaching the pictures. I really want to convert this car to fully original but I want to start with a good candidate. Your help and expertise is much appreciated. The owners in Germany supposedly checked with VW and were told chassis was legitimately a split window. I on the other hand, want to be certain. If this is the case would this be a very rare car, a hiccup or simply a great scheme? And yet she looks so pretty Rolling Eyes

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Engine has way too much bling; not my taste but appears well looked after.


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56samba
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

Hi,

I don't know how to describe, but in my opinion these split windows look different than original. They look asymetrical...
Maybe a later replacement for oval window?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

That is an oval window that someone added a center bar to. It is not a split window and did not come from the factory that way.

They also added a dome light above the rear window where a real split dash split would have one and installed one piece windows in the doors. The doors should have vent wings. The engine is not original either.

I also see non sealed beam headlight buckets with clear sealed beam front glass installed.

Maybe it is just the picture but the sided of the front hood look weird. I can't see the indention along the sides.

I would inspect that car very carefully because if it has these mods and they are trying to pass it off as a factory split then they are either smoking crack or being dishonest. Who knows what is lurking under that shiny paint.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for all the feedback, you guys rock.

In that case is there value to a car that has been modified from an oval to a split window?

What would be a good price point for said car in its current condition? Is there any increase in value were the car be restored to original upholstery, engine components or would it just be a waste of my time and money? I am personally not a big fan of mods as I value originality but I still think the car looks beautiful yet will never be a true split window.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

splitjunkie wrote:
That is an oval window that someone added a center bar to. It is not a split window and did not come from the factory that way.

They also added a dome light above the rear window where a real split dash split would have one and installed one piece windows in the doors. The doors should have vent wings. The engine is not original either.

I also see non sealed beam headlight buckets with clear sealed beam front glass installed.

Maybe it is just the picture but the sided of the front hood look weird. I can't see the indention along the sides.

I would inspect that car very carefully because if it has these mods and they are trying to pass it off as a factory split then they are either smoking crack or being dishonest. Who knows what is lurking under that shiny paint.


Chris, those are all very valuable observations, I had noticed some of them but not all and it truly sheds light and puts things in perspective. Thank you very much for all your insight.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

Check out the value of a similar original 1954 oval, subtract the cost of restoring it to stock. It will definitely be worth more stock. Noone wants to spend all the time at rallies defending the fake bar in the rear window.

Whoever did this had not clue about the changes in VW specs in the early 50s. When someone spend time fitting a pseudo split window with crome accents, and they did not notice that the vent windows came with the chrome in the splits, and then did so much work to remove the vent windows that really belonged with the chrome in the rear window... What a mess.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

I would ask for my $ back as its misrepresented. Find an oval thats not been buggered up or that true split. Too many red flags.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

Buy it and sale it to Chris Vallone, he's looking for another Zwitter. Doesn't he deal with hack jobs Laughing
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2062127
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

- the split window bar is definitely added to an oval rear window. Not even a window swap, but just a fabricated bar added. The window looks TERRIBLE!

-if this car was possibly a zwitter the dash has the wrong ashtray stamping. Further confirming that this car started life as an Oval window beetle.

-value, this car is Definitely devalued far less than a typical oval window.

-if you did not photoshop out the license plates, sometimes (not always) that is a tip off to scammers who often attempt to hide the true identity and location of the car.

-I would steer clear of a car and seller that have so many secrets, not likely to end well

-if for some reason you really want to pursue this car still, you definitely want to have a very knowledgeable person evaluate the car in person. Too many secrets and issues to buy a car like this sight unseen.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

56Cabrio wrote:
Buy it and sale it to Chris Vallone, he's looking for another Zwitter. Doesn't he deal with hack jobs Laughing
thttps://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2062127

Did you see the photo from his paint and body shop.... they had the car lifted up at the rear apron by a jack Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

After all the great info you have all provided I have decided to skip on this one. I thank you and forum admins for having such a great place for people like me who otherwise lacks the knowledge of these vehicles to gain such wealth of information. I am very glad I consulted here before making what would have been a very bad decision.

I hope this thread helps those that may stumble on to the same or similar situation as I did.
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oldscooldude
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

56Cabrio wrote:
Buy it and sale it to Chris Vallone, he's looking for another Zwitter. Doesn't he deal with hack jobs Laughing
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2062127


I will give him a shout in case he is interested.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

56Cabrio wrote:
Buy it and sale it to Chris Vallone, he's looking for another Zwitter. Doesn't he deal with hack jobs Laughing
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2062127


Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1954 Split Window Dilemma Reply with quote

no shame, what a hack

56Cabrio wrote:
Buy it and sale it to Chris Vallone, he's looking for another Zwitter. Doesn't he deal with hack jobs Laughing
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2062127
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