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Wallyman
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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 Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: How to fix a mismatch 1500 SP Carb/Dizzy combo? |
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First post, so be gentle! I've searched and don't feel like I am finding a clear answer, maybe because I have a slightly odd problem.
I bought a 71 Super for the wife thinking it was a fairly unmolested car but once I got it home (ACVW things were not my strong suit but I am getting up to speed now!) I figured out that the motor is not right, and what we have is a H5 1500cc SP out of a 1969. BAH! Accepting it for what it is and with no plans to swap it, I want to solve a couple of issues that it has:
1 - The PO put a new carb on from MAMotorworks within the last year or so.. a Solex H-30-PIC (yeah, manual choke - no clue why he did that). I need a working electric choke, and hot restart is a bitch on this car too. At least the 30 is right for a 1500 SP, though....
2 - My dizzy is stamped:
JE(F?)UR 4
0 231 167 049
113 905 205 AJ
Which appears to be correct for a '71 1600 DP 49 state manual tranny motor (if only that was what I had!). The car does have a noticable flat spot off idle, and I read that I want to match carb and dizzy correctly for all kinds of reasons. I think I want to get rid of points and move to electronic at the same time as addressing any changes. Front of advance can is hooked to carb, rear vac port is not connected.
Engine is otherwise (I believe, tho who really knows) stock and will likely remain that way as the wife wants a classic Beetle, not some hot rod. It runs fine once warm, idles ok, and revs fine (I guess, since I am used to big cam V8s). Mileage was 24+ on a recent trip (lots of idling on that tank of gas as I was sorting out other issues before we left) and other than hot restart was fine.
So, assuming I keep the stock '69 SP 1500, what is a solid carb/electonic dizzy combo that I can slap on this thing? Should I stick with the 30 series and get the PICT instead? If so, what dizzy goes best with it, a stock 113 905 205 T? Some other aftermarket unit? Or move up to a 31 series, or even 34 carb? And if so.. dizzy match would be what?
Any help appreciated, as I would like to get this sorted out so we can enjoy it more and I just don't have a good handle on the answer.
Wallyman |
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PumaVW79
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2012
Posts: 487
Location: WGS84: 22.9083° S, 43.1964° W
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: Re: How to fix a mismatch 1500 SP Carb/Dizzy combo? |
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| Wallyman wrote: |
| The car does have a noticable flat spot off idle, and I read that I want to match carb and dizzy correctly for all kinds of reasons. I think I want to get rid of points and move to electronic at the same time as addressing any changes. Front of advance can is hooked to carb, rear vac port is not connected. |
The 049 is a vacuum only distributor. I never see one, but I think it needs two hoses to work properly.
I'm running one module of "'electronic assisted ignition" that assists points. It's a transistor based, and produce faster switching speeds, and reduce arcing across the point contacts resulting in much less wear on the points, better and strong sparks. You should expect ten times more durability of the points and far better efficiency of your ignition system with very little investment.
And if it's fail (happened only one time with me, in more than five years) you just re-route the wires to "no-assisted" points and go home or where you wants to go. Not my case, because after that fail, I always carry a spare (it's dirty cheap) , still unused.
| Wallyman wrote: |
| So, assuming I keep the stock '69 SP 1500, what is a solid carb/electonic dizzy combo that I can slap on this thing? Should I stick with the 30 series and get the PICT instead? If so, what dizzy goes best with it, a stock 113 905 205 T? Some other aftermarket unit? Or move up to a 31 series, or even 34 carb? And if so.. dizzy match would be what? |
Mismatch is a rare word in acvw word. For a standard point of view, almost whatever will fit in anything - some will need slight/big changes and there are some incompatibilities.
Then the main word to pay attention is tune or better, fine tune. It's also means a matter of preferences and driving style. Mine is:
About distributors: My experiences are with 050 (centrifugal only, similar to 010 and 019) and 038 SVDA (similar to 034). Both works great but I'm more inclined to SVDA.
I think it's better for hot starts and have a smoother curve.
About carbs: Have only experiences with dual Solex single-barrel carbs - single carbs are not in my wish list (dual double-barrels yes, but I really don't need them).
Dual solexes are easy to tune and maintain and works fine.
I never used chokes of any type in any of my previous or current cars, and never missed. Still waiting to know for whom they are inventend. 
Further reading:
http://www.vw-resource.com/right_dizzy.html
http://www.aircooled.net/vw-carburetor-options-selection-101/ |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Actually the distributor you have is the factory DVDA for a 1971 Super....dual advance and dual vacuum. It is a good one.
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A1971M
If it were me, I would find a distributor for a 30PICT 1 carb and use that, and pretend you are a 1969 1500cc engine. Tim, the carb guy, could get you one someplace or rebuild one for you.
I would just use a SVO distrubutor myself like a 205K, L, M, or T and time it as they suggest. |
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Wallyman
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:08 am Post subject: Re: How to fix a mismatch 1500 SP Carb/Dizzy combo? |
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| PumaVW79 wrote: |
The 049 is a vacuum only distributor. I never see one, but I think it needs two hoses to work properly.
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As I read it, the back of the can is for retard (referenced in the vw-resource article you linked). I've read that people generally run them unhooked when the carb has a single vac port. Obviously if the second port is unhooked, I lose some functionality and it isn't working right. Which is part of my concern, it's obviously not the right part for this motor/carb.
| Quote: |
I'm running one module of "'electronic assisted ignition" that assists points. |
Where might I find that option for sale?
| Quote: |
Mismatch is a rare word in acvw word. For a standard point of view, almost whatever will fit in anything - some will need slight/big changes and there are some incompatibilities.
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I need to dig up the place I found it.. here is an example: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=156127
, see the second post.
| glutamodo wrote: |
| The factory carburators from the factory were delivered "mated" to a specific distributor - there were many slightly different version of the later carburators which have slightly different placements in their vacuum fittings compared to the venturi and throttle butterfly as to work best with the distributor. There is a bit of swap-ability, some work better than others. Here is some info I've posted before - not a complete chart, but it does list some of the different combinations. Solex would stamp different series of the same type of carb with a number at the base flange like this... |
Well, I have an aftermarket carb, which I plan to swap anyhow to get my choke, so matching a stock carb/stock dizzy isn't my option since I have the Solex H-30. Further, his last comment on the first image says [about the Brosol H30/31 PICT] that is does not provide enough vacuum for SV and DV dizzys. Is my Solex H-30-PIC the same way?
The basic concept I walked away with after reading all kinds of stuff online was match the dizzy and the carb and you will be happier than if you don't, all thing equal. I certainly haven't seen anything where people say "You can make anything work with anything satisfactorily".. leave off the last word, then yes, you can make it work together to some greater or lessor degree, my car shows that but am I satisfied? Not really, I know it isn't right and I can feel something is wrong. Can I tune it out? Maybe? But it seems like it might be easier/smarter to jsut buy the right parts to start with if the H30/049 is a bad match which I think I am reading it is.
| Quote: |
Then the main word to pay attention is tune or better, fine tune. It's also means a matter of preferences and driving style. Mine is:
About distributors: My experiences are with 050 (centrifugal only, similar to 010 and 019) and 038 SVDA (similar to 034). Both works great but I'm more inclined to SVDA.
I think it's better for hot starts and have a smoother curve.
About carbs: Have only experiences with dual Solex single-barrel carbs - single carbs are not in my wish list (dual double-barrels yes, but I really don't need them).
Dual solexes are easy to tune and maintain and works fine.
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Can you steer me towards a kit I can look at that you are talking about, or is it more "build you own"?
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I never used chokes of any type in any of my previous or current cars, and never missed. Still waiting to know for whom they are inventend.
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Perhaps I am lacking in the tune, because the SB won't run without a constant feathering of the throttle on start, and until it warms up it barely runs. After it is warmed up, all is well. I may be in the north, but it was 75 yesterday and it still didn't like to start and wasn't happy until about a minute and a half of running.
I think that is where I came up with the idea of a "match" of carb and dizzy.
For example, here http://www.vw-resource.com/carb_dist.html says (in part):
The early Beetles (up to and including the 1970 model year) used the following carburetors -
... 30PICT/2 (1500cc engine -- '67, '68, and '69 -- and in some countries 1970),
All of these used the single vacuum with single advance (SVSA) distributor -- vacuum advance only. These distributors all have the #3 cylinder timing running 3 degrees less advanced than the other cylinders due to the fact that oil cooler is located inside the fan shroud, resulting in warmer air being directed to the left side cylinders. The #3 cylinder got the worst of it and overheated/detonated a little at normal advance. So if you have an engine with the older in-shroud oil cooler, you should really use the SVSA distributor with it's 3-degree retard on the #3 cam lobe.
Well, I have a 69 motor, so should I be trying to find the SVSA that belongs on it instead of the DVDA from the 71 that IS on it? Stuff like above that is what gets me confused.
Maybe I did this all wrong, maybe what I should have asked is this:
I have a stock 1500, what carb and dizzy should I use?
Ignore what I have, but what would be a good way to go. I'm skeptical that I can live without the choke (but please try to enlighten me what it takes to be happy with out it, I'd love to not buy another carb if I can make this one work) so I assume a new carb is needed. And (from what I can tell) the SP is limited on carb options so what dizzy works with the limited carb options? |
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Wallyman
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
Actually the distributor you have is the factory DVDA for a 1971 Super....dual advance and dual vacuum. It is a good one.
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm#A1971M
If it were me, I would find a distributor for a 30PICT 1 carb and use that, and pretend you are a 1969 1500cc engine. Tim, the carb guy, could get you one someplace or rebuild one for you.
I would just use a SVO distrubutor myself like a 205K, L, M, or T and time it as they suggest. |
I saw that also for the distributor (tho I found it elsewhere), it's right for the body but not for the motor/carb.
So leave the H30 carb (still have my choke issue, but could swap to a 30PICT right?) and find a motor-correct 205 distributor and convert it to electronic? I'll shoot Tim a note and see what he says.. I see he has refurbed ones for sale right now, so hopefully he has an option for me. |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:59 am Post subject: |
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I don't know if those 30/31 carbs give the correct vacuum signature for your DVDA distriburtor. Or for a normal single port 205 K, L, M, or T.
Tim would know. Ask for his advice.
That being said, when people talk about "an electronic distributor" what they are usually referring to is a "points replacement module" (like a Petronics or a Compufire or something like that) so they don't have to adjust the points every 3,000 miles. That is a different thing than an electronic ignition. |
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Wallyman
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
I don't know if those 30/31 carbs give the correct vacuum signature for your DVDA distriburtor. Or for a normal single port 205 K, L, M, or T.
Tim would know. Ask for his advice.
That being said, when people talk about "an electronic distributor" what they are usually referring to is a "points replacement module" (like a Petronics or a Compufire or something like that) so they don't have to adjust the points every 3,000 miles. That is a different thing than an electronic ignition. |
That was my question too after seeing the concerns over vacuum signal. I shot Tim a note asking for his thoughts and gave him the short version of what I have. Hopefully he can steer me right to a solution based on his experience and maybe even have the parts I need.
Opps - yes, "points replacement module" is what I meant.  Not a full blown electronic ignition. |
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hoghead5150
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Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 989
Location: oklahoma
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Wallyman
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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PumaVW79
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2012
Posts: 487
Location: WGS84: 22.9083° S, 43.1964° W
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Wallyman wrote: |
| Where might I find that option for sale? |
It's similar to this one http://www.apogeekits.com/electronic_ignition.htm . Looks legit, but I don't know nothing about this particular product or seller.
Pertronix seems to be much more popular, but I prefer this system because it maintains the distributor untouched (easier to reverse).
| Wallyman wrote: |
The basic concept I walked away with after reading all kinds of stuff online was match the dizzy and the carb and you will be happier than if you don't, all thing equal. I certainly haven't seen anything where people say "You can make anything work with anything satisfactorily".. leave off the last word, then yes, you can make it work together to some greater or lessor degree, my car shows that but am I satisfied? Not really, I know it isn't right and I can feel something is wrong. Can I tune it out? Maybe? But it seems like it might be easier/smarter to just buy the right parts to start with if the H30/049 is a bad match which I think I am reading it is.
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Yes. To make those "unmatched" things work satisfactorily one needs to have pleasure with experiments...
| Wallyman wrote: |
Can you steer me towards a kit I can look at that you are talking about, or is it more "build you own"?
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Basically, dual Kadrons kits: http://www.shop.kaddieshack.com/1-0F-6-Kadron-Turn-Key-Dual-Carburetor-Kits_c3.htm
| Wallyman wrote: |
Well, I have a 69 motor, so should I be trying to find the SVSA that belongs on it instead of the DVDA from the 71 that IS on it? Stuff like above that is what gets me confused.
Maybe I did this all wrong, maybe what I should have asked is this:
I have a stock 1500, what carb and dizzy should I use? |
I have read about people very happy with BOCAR carburetor combined with DVDA or SVDA distributors (the last with the retard port closed off).
| Wallyman wrote: |
Ignore what I have, but what would be a good way to go. I'm skeptical that I can live without the choke (but please try to enlighten me what it takes to be happy with out it, I'd love to not buy another carb if I can make this one work) so I assume a new carb is needed. And (from what I can tell) the SP is limited on carb options so what dizzy works with the limited carb options? |
Ignored  |
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Wallyman
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:35 pm Post subject: Getting closer! |
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So looking hard at a 113 905 205 M rebuilt from TASB, and a 30 PICT-3 rebuilt from Volkbitz.. the remaining question which I can't find a definitive answer for is this:
Will a Pertronix Ignitor I (45104?) or II (91847V?) fit the 113 905 205M?
I can't seem to find anything clear about it; some things that imply yes and some that implied no.... anyone confirm it would work?
Thanks all! |
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Dr OnHolliday
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Joined: May 11, 2012
Posts: 1215
Location: was Escondido now San Berdoo
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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If you install a Pertronix points-replacement ignition kit, you will not have the retarded (in every sense of the word) timing for cyl #3...
_________________
1965 Type 1 sunroof Baja / about 70k miles on self-rebuilt '74 1600 and counting / SP heads and aftermarket valve keepers / non-doghouse shroud with external cooler and filter / 1.5 qt extended sump / Weber 32/36 DFAV progressive carb / 009 dist with Pertronix / 1.25 ratio rockers and ball adjusters / 1.5" stainless steel J-pipes and carbon steel baja exhaust |
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foamermetal
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Joined: February 17, 2011
Posts: 274
Location: Warner Robins, Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Go to oldvolkshome.com It will tell you what needs to go on your 1500. Get you a good Pict 2 carb for that single port matched with the distributor data on that site you should be good. |
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Wallyman
Samba Member
Joined: June 27, 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Getting closer! |
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| Wallyman wrote: |
| So looking hard at a 113 905 205 M rebuilt from TASB, and a 30 PICT-3 rebuilt from Volkbitz.. |
Bought both, should have them in a few weeks!
Pertronix is next... |
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