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808OvalGreasemonkey Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2010 Posts: 763 Location: Oahu
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: Pros and Cons: Real vs Replica 356s |
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Moderators Note: This topic was split off from the Decline of the 356 movement topic. Feel free to discuss pros and cons..
Brian O'Kelly (LHG)
OR,you can do what I did and still have fun without all the $$ and worry.
It is a BECK,with a TUBE FRAME chassis and swing arm suspension,and with its 2110/dual Weber44's makes 136 dynoed HP and is FUN AS HELL.
I never have to worry about rust and parking it somewhere,it is not a .5 million dollar collectable,but a 30K usable driver and it has rewarded me with all the smiles I have when I drive it.
I had a mint condition,60K original mile Oval Beetle,and I had to pick between that car and the Beck to sell,and I sold the Beetle.
This Beck blows it away for driving pleasure and looks.
There are many crappy kit cars out there,but with a Beck or Intermeccanica,you have a great option to a real 356 that will not break the bank. I had a steering box go bad and I bought a new one for 90 bux....new engine with all the goodies,5K. This is the most FUN for the money for sure.
It is the"silicone boobies" version of a 356..they're not real,but who's complaining?? It's not real but it looks and feels good!
Here is a little video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdwRa7H-1kA |
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808OvalGreasemonkey Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2010 Posts: 763 Location: Oahu
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Wanted to add a side note;
"The prevelance of VW based Porsche kit and replica cars are adding to the decline of the Porsche 356 movement as well".
It is like those girls that have real boobies putting down the girls with the "bolt ons". "You know they're not real!" |
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Unobtanium-inc Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2007 Posts: 345 Location: Upstate NY
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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The replica is a good alternative but I have found many buyers of real 356's who say their replica doesn't really do it for them over the long haul. The general consesnus comes down to the fact that the replica's essentially have no soul, no provenance, no history. New ones are cranked out every day, de-valueing the current ones by watering down the pool.
I had one as my first taste of a Porsche 356, I had owned 911's before that.
After restoring it I got bored with it, sold it and bought my first 356, a 63 B Coupe. You can read the story of my replica here:
http://unobtaniuminc.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/you-can-never-go-home-again/ |
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356JAEGER Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2007 Posts: 444 Location: Norte California
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Unobtanium-inc wrote: |
The replica is a good alternative but I have found many buyers of real 356's who say their replica doesn't really do it for them over the long haul. The general consesnus comes down to the fact that the replica's essentially have no soul, no provenance, no history. New ones are cranked out every day, de-valueing the current ones by watering down the pool. |
Adam,
Their history just starts later and they have their own soul for those who use and care for them, just as someone's new Audi TT may for them. I know many guys with factory 356's who also own some very sweet current versions, cars that offer plenty of their own charms. Many of the folks in the 356 Registry, are also invested in the business of 356's. It is they who profit financially from 'keeping the faith'. For most of us it's an interesting hobby, but convincing someone that the old rusty hulk someone has for sale, is in possession of a 'soul ' that someone's Beck or Intermecchanica or whatever, is incapable of possessing, is a good sales pitch, but no more than that. Don't forget that when 356's were being built back in the day, there were new ones cranked out every day, devaluing the others by watering down the pool. _________________ Regards,
Joel Jensen
When in doubt, think about it..
The outcome of a project is directly proportional to its preparation. |
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Unobtanium-inc Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2007 Posts: 345 Location: Upstate NY
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Joel,
You are right in one respect, when 356's were new the newest one out de-valued the older ones. I recently bought a 57 Coupe that had the original sales slip, it showed where the guy traded in his 53 Coupe to get the new one, and got $1500 for it, compared to $3800 for new 57. Wonder which one would be worth more now?
In fact, when 356's were new is a similar climate to the one we have now, it is an expensive car, not to be had by everyman. Only in the late 60s and 70s did 356's reach their low level where anyone could grab one for a few hundred bucks.
Also, I am not relaying just my opinion of guys getting bored with replica's, this is a long history of guys either calling me to buy cars or ones who actually do buy a real 356, and their stories of why they want a Porsche Factory Built Car. Many also cry and feel the pain when they go to sell their Beck or Vintage Speedster that they paid big money for only to realize when they go to sell it they have to compete with the CMC replica that is nowhere near as cool as theirs, but is a third of the price of what they paid Harry at Beck.
I hope you weren't insinuating that I was talking about all this in the hopes of selling more 356's, the problem is not in selling, but in finding and buying them. Most of the cars I sell are from a couple of pics, sometimes taken directly from my trailer.
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808OvalGreasemonkey Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2010 Posts: 763 Location: Oahu
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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I can totally understand the viewpoint of where you are coming from,however "history" usually means one thing to me=RUST. I cannot stand it,and I avoid it at all costs. I can build a decent engine,fix mechanical tidbits,but I have no time or desire to tackle any RUST in my life.
Havng read many classic car mags,this is the reality of 356 ownership,and unless you are doing a rotisserie resto,there will always be rust due to the fact they were never zinc dipped.
Life is short,I want to DRIVE,not sit around a garage dealing with rust.
I can understand provenance and history,and am in love with the history of BMW motorcycles,and would never buy a URAL or Chiangjeng(BMW copies)due to the difference in mechanical quality,and bikes usually have very little body or structural bits that can rust.
I restored this myself;
into this
So yes,I can understand where the desire to own the real thing comes from,but honestly,if had a real Carrera speedster,I would not want to drive it at all,it would be too valuable and a really low torque,crappy driving car IMO. There is a video of a guy on Maui with a real one and when he is just cruising that thing is at 5K+ rpms! He is revving it out to 7k just to make it to the next gear and it is loud.
On a track it would be awesome....
As for the real speedster,I cannot see spending $200-$250K for 70hp. ,I am just not that much of high roller to spend so much for so little. My car has 130+hp and it just keeps up with modern cars. |
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356JAEGER Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2007 Posts: 444 Location: Norte California
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Adam, My observation is that the Beck and other quality builds, sell for much more than the CMC cars, and while not appreciating like the real thing, they seem to sell easily and frequently offering a practical and much more economical way for many to enjoy what is the same experience, some would say an improved one. I own real cars, but I would never disparage someone for finding happiness with a new build. They'll probably get to actually enjoy it as intended rather than as an occasionally if ever used icon, that 99.9 % of the world can't tell from the 'fake'. It' just another way to fulfill a dream. Keep on finding them, people need hobbies and vendors need a market... _________________ Regards,
Joel Jensen
When in doubt, think about it..
The outcome of a project is directly proportional to its preparation. |
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808OvalGreasemonkey Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2010 Posts: 763 Location: Oahu
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Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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Glenn,I understand,however this thread was about the 356 movement and more than once people have mentioned they "can't afford one",so I chose to show pictures of my car to mention a alternative to "the real thing". It is 100% fake,but has the same track/wheelbase/weight (within 70 lbs of a real speedster)and crappy swingarm suspension so you get 85% of the experience with 100% less worries and NO rust!
I have been to the kit car forum and there are mostly dune buggies in there. My car was a "factory" built Beck,and not a "kit".
I am not trying to offend anyone or sway opinions,just sharing my joy of having one of these and saying 85% of the 356 experience is within reach for a much lower entry fee.
356 Jaeger,you have a very cool non-biased outlook of the 356 replicas and you are right,we cherish these just like we would the real thing and since you are a owner of the real thing,you are definitiely in the minority,since most HATE replicas and are rather snooty about it,but that is OK,it doesn't make the cars less fun to drive. Aloha |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76937 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:53 am Post subject: |
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I understand..... that's why I didn't remove the post.
It was just a reminder.
The Beck is like the Superformance Cobra, a "replica" and not a kit. Better made than the original, better handling and better performance.
It may look like the original but it is not.
I'm just glad you can't get a Porsche VIN for a Beck like you can get a CSX VIN for a Superformance,
OK... back to the topic. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Unobtanium-inc Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2007 Posts: 345 Location: Upstate NY
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Glenn-
A lot of these guys seem to think you can get a VIN, every time I post pics of my wall of dead cars I get a few emails from kit guys wanting a plate, the answer is always no.
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76937 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Unobtanium-inc wrote: |
Glenn-
A lot of these guys seem to think you can get a VIN, every time I post pics of my wall of dead cars I get a few emails from kit guys wanting a plate, the answer is always no.
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As far as I know it's illegal to swap VINs. Fora kit car built on a VW pan, they should use the VW VIN. For a completely new car like a Beck, Beck should have their own VINs.
Personally I hate when yo see a kit on a VW pan and it's registered as a 56 Porsche.
Who they kidding? _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Barry Brisco Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2010 Posts: 119 Location: San Mateo, California
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Glenn wrote: |
Personally I hate when yo see a kit on a VW pan and it's registered as a 56 Porsche.
Who they kidding? |
No one, not even themselves.
A few years ago I was driving on a 6 lane surface street in Orange County (Southern California) in a rental car, when I was passed by what appeared to be a Convertible D. At the next stop signal I pulled alongside the car, noticed that there were no fender braces (but it did have "PORSCHE" scripts front and rear), leaned out the window and said hello to the driver and asked him what year his car was, saying I used to own a 356A Convertible D. He said in a soft voice "It's a replica" and drove off. He seemed embarrassed.
I don't understand the attraction of owning a fake Porsche. But to each his own... _________________ Barry Brisco
1959 356A coupe #105553
1959 356A Convertible D #86439 (sold)
1964 356C coupe #216966 (sold)
2009 Porsche Cayman (daily driver)
Last edited by Barry Brisco on Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MMW Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2012 Posts: 846 Location: northern NJ
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Quote -- "I don't understand the attraction of owning a fake Porsche. But to each his own..."
Price is a big factor. Also you don't worry as much about driving it all the time. You can own a cool looking fun car for a lot less money & is easily replaceable. I know I don't drive my coupe with the thinking it's disposable. I have a pick-up & when it gets to a certain age/condition I send it down the road & get another one. With a "fake" Porsche I would tend to think the same way, just run it until a certain point & sell it.
I know some of you put lots of miles on your cars but most 356 owners don't because they know what it costs to let it get to the condition that it needs a restoration. _________________ Mic
1959 356 coupe
Missing the original engine 72488
Update - third pc. found!
Now just need the case halves.
1965 fenderless beetle |
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Unobtanium-inc Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2007 Posts: 345 Location: Upstate NY
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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I can see the attraction of kit, especially a 550 or 904, two cars most people can never own. Personally I would drive a 356 coupe than a fake convertible, but I can see the attraction, and there is a certain freedom in knowing you can get any part you need from Wolfsburg West or JC Whitney, for cheap, and you can probably put it on yourself with the old hippie manual, and if it rusts or is crashed, no biggie, pull in the gutter and go buy another.
It all depends on how deep you connect with your car. I like to connect with the history of the Porsche marque, when I see a pic of Dr. Porsche I feel a certain pride that I own one of his creations. When I met Dr. Wolfgang Porsche this past year I felt a certain kinship, I am sure the Beck owners feel the same thing when they meet Chuck, but for me it is Porsche.
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356JAEGER Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2007 Posts: 444 Location: Norte California
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Unobtanium-inc wrote: |
I can see the attraction of kit, especially a 550 or 904, two cars most people can never own.
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Adam,
It's all relative, the vast majority of the population of this planet can't, or rarely can, imagine owning a car, much less a Porsche. That aside, some don't need the mystique and the repop is just fine thank you. What is hard to grasp is the disdain owners of original cars seem to have for those who have a different way to find Carma. It's that sort of stuff that got the Registry to it's present place, isolated but to the ring knockers. _________________ Regards,
Joel Jensen
When in doubt, think about it..
The outcome of a project is directly proportional to its preparation. |
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cmarino929 Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2009 Posts: 257 Location: Central NJ
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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I also feel like its how much your willing to spend for your love of the porsche. Is it a smart investment to spend 30-50 grand on a car from the 50s or 60s that you dont know everything about? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your salary, money saved, a risk you are taking buying this car, etc. Right now im a vw guy but doesnt mean i cant be a porsche guy later on. If anyone really wanted one i guess its just a matter of work and sacrifice to get it. If you want one to drive like your living in the 50s or 60s and park it and leave it, drive the snot out of it, kit car sounds pretty good. If you feel the love of the history, a real one is it. |
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Braukuche Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004 Posts: 11004
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:35 am Post subject: |
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356JAEGER wrote: |
Unobtanium-inc wrote: |
I can see the attraction of kit, especially a 550 or 904, two cars most people can never own.
] |
Adam,
It's all relative, the vast majority of the population of this planet can't, or rarely can, imagine owning a car, much less a Porsche. That aside, some don't need the mystique and the repop is just fine thank you. What is hard to grasp is the disdain owners of original cars seem to have for those who have a different way to find Carma. It's that sort of stuff that got the Registry to it's present place, isolated but to the ring knockers. |
Kit cars are nothing like the real thing. They are fun in their own right, but have absolutely nothing in common with a real Porsche other than appearance if you don't look too hard. I would never drive a plastic car, period, seem like a total death trap, even worse than my split buses For the price I'd rather fix up a beater 912, they are still affordable and approximate the 356 experience better than a kit car and also are more likely to go up in value. _________________ Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Jon Schmid Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2012 Posts: 2038 Location: Southern California
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject: The decline of the Porsche 356 movement and my take on it... |
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Another way to tell: A few weeks back I was at the head of a lane waiting at a stoplight in my Roadster when a guy in a "Speedster" came down the freeway offramp and turned left in front of me. So I waved and honked the horn to say "hi." He waved and honked back. I forgot how feeble bug horns sound.
Jon |
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808OvalGreasemonkey Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2010 Posts: 763 Location: Oahu
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Remember now,the first Porsches were built using mostly VW running gear. The later ones were a progression,however they still had the VW front suspension,swing arm suspension,etc.
The Beck and Intermeccanica both have the front torsion beams welded to the chassis like the originals,albeit non-kingpin,and share the same wheelbase/track/swingarm suspension/weight/dimensions/flat 4 boxer engine,so I would not say they are "nothing" alike.
Now if you build a Pontiac Fiero into a "Ferrari Testarossa" which is a kit car or a Datsun 240Z into a "Ferrari 250 GTO",another kit car,I would say THOSE are nothing alike.
However atleast a speedster has "similar" components and is powered by a air cooled flat 4 motor,just like the 356. However since it is not a real one,you are FREE to do whatever you like,which adds to the fun. Why would I want a uber-expensive 4 banger that only puts out 90 hP (356 motor in a 912) when I can have a custom built VW motor that puts out near 150 HP in a 1700lb. car? You have to really drive one before you judge. And yes,they are a deathtrap,I consider them to be akin to riding a motorcycle,however I don't see a real speedster being a lot "safer" IMO |
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sjs356 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2008 Posts: 5 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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We may be skating thin ice turning this thread into a discussion on replicas, but I feel compelled to add my two cents. I have a “real” 1956 356 A Coupe and, up until a month ago, I had a Beck 550 Spyder replica. So I have experienced both.
Certainly I can understand someone not wanting to own a replica; after all, it’s not a Porsche. But I have never understood the level of disdain for replicas that some seem to have, and I think there are some common false assumptions people make when they don’t actually know someone who owns a replica or have never owned one themselves.
For one, it’s often assumed that replica owners are less knowledgeable about and/or less connected to the history of Porsche. Let me tell you, among my group of Spyder replica owning buddies there is a considerable amount of Porsche knowledge. We’re talking knowing which chassis had which bits and who drove them and what races they won, libraries of books, flash drives full of photos, etc. Part of what makes you want to get a Spyder replica is the respect for the history of what a real Spyder represents. This may not be true of all replica owners, but it sure seems true of the guys I know.
Secondly, people often assume that someone buys a replica because he can’t afford anything else. And this line of thinking leads to…“Why would you buy a replica when you could just get a solid 912? Or why buy a Speedster replica when you could get a B Coupe.” But if you grew up lusting after and learning every detail about a 550 Spyder or a 356 Speedster, why would you want a 912? I love 912s, but it ain’t even remotely close to the look and feel of an open car that weighs 1,300 pounds and has 125 horsepower. One of my close friends drives his Spyder replica to work at least once a week. He could easily afford a Boxster or a B Coupe or a 912. But he doesn’t want to own one of those; he wants to drive a Spyder. You can’t drive a $3 million car to work, even if you could afford one, so he has the Beck.
Finally, it seems that owners of real Porsche 356s often appear to feel threatened by replicas, as though the preponderance of inexpensive fiberglass Speedsters or Spyders is going to devalue their “real” car. But throughout the last 20 years in which replicas have become more prevalent, what has happened to the value and prestige of an authentic 356 Speedster, 550 Spyder (or Shelby Cobra for that matter)? Are you kidding me? The real thing has never been more in demand. I think you could make a pretty compelling argument that the replicas actually boost the value and prestige of the real thing, not water it down.
When I decided to sell a car, I chose to sell the Spyder replica versus my “real” A Coupe. There were lots of reasons behind this, and, yes, of course, a few of the big ones were the history and provenance of the real car versus the replica, as well as the long-term monetary value. So I get why people would choose not to buy one.
But what’s with the all the derision and criticism of people who do choose to own one? (I’m not referring to the comments on this thread but just attitudes among some, particularly those in the Registry high command.)
Don’t we want to encourage enthusiasm for the Porsche marque, especially the vintage ones? Why criticize someone for a replica when you could easily just say, “Cool, that guy must really love the shape of old Porsches too.”
And that leads back full circle to the original point of this thread. Shouldn’t we as fellow vintage Porsche enthusiasts be in the business of spreading the word and encouraging participation? Aren’t cars supposed to be fun? Life’s too short to be putting up walls and requiring secret handshakes. |
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