Road Test: Type I Engine in a Late Westy

[Westy Steve]

I just wanted to share my experience with using a small motor in a late model bus. I keep going round and round with what type of engine to put in my late model Westy. It’s more of an academic exercise, since I don’t have the time to work on my bus right now. But, when I get my bus completed, as some point in the future, I’d like to take it across the country. I have an original 2.0 liter Type IV engine that has only 50,000 miles on it that I’ll be putting in it. However, a mental exercise I keep going through is whether that would be as reliable as a freshly built Type I engine. I had thought about building a stroker motor, for more horsepower at lower RPM where I’d need it. My bus is a ’74, so it does have a higher gear ratio than the early buses, but not as high as the ’76 and later buses, which should be helpful.

So, here’s the story. A friend told me he had a Westy similar to mine with a stock bug engine that he described as “tired”. He offered to let me drive it. So I went over to his house and tried it out. When I started it, the smaller engine sounded smooth and was a lot quieter. It sounded really great. When I drove off of his large piece of land to the highway, it seemed to perform admirably.

But when I got to the highway and revved it up, I found that flooring that bus only got me up to 54 mph in fourth gear. My friend said he had it up to 60 mph (max) on flat ground, but this highway was only slightly hilly. I was very unimpressed with its performance.

My conclusion is that a stock motor just can’t push the heavier, and higher-geared, Westy Buses. I do wonder how it might have performed with a more powerful Type I engine…especially one that had been stroked for lower end torque. Anyone who has done that care to share their top-speed and the stats on their Type I engine?

Westy Steve
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I love my Bay Westy!
'74 Westy
'62 Beetle Ragtop

[Stuartzickefoose]

theizzardking will tell you just how awesome type 1 motors are...

ill tell him to get on here and post something up.
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MINE - 1978 Westfalia ~ Maisy ~ FI, Hydraulic Valves, Electronic Points, 2.0 (NEED A SET OF HEADS, PM ME IF YOU HAVE A SET)

DAD's - 1972 Westfalia ~ Sticky ~ 1.7(?) 914 motor, allison electronic ignition, electric fuel pump, dual webers w/o choke.

“Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.”


“Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind.”

[Desertbusman]

So how much weight difference is there between an early bay and a late one? And from that amount deduct the weight difference between a T-1 and the heavier T-4 engine.
A good condition stock T-1 is probably good for 80-85 MPH in an early bay. A couple hundred extra pounds isn't going to slow it down much.
So the difference is in the gearing. The only good way to evaluate a T-1 in a late bay is also give it the earlier gearing.
As far as raw horspower between T-1's and T-4's, yes the stock T-1 is less. An otherwise stock T-1 out to 1776 should be about comparable to a stock 1795 (an 1800). But T-1 performance upgrades are available everywhere and in all kinds of flavors.

Only way to get a real comparison using a T-1 in a late bay is to also use the early gearing. And it shouldn't be any harder on the engine and trans than it is in an early bay. The other thing is that most T-1 early bay people don't run them much over 60 mph.
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The best thing that anyone can do for their Bay is get the Volkswagen of America Official Service Manual published by Robert Bentley. Without it the bus is pretty much doomed.

[theizzardking]

yeah that motor does sound tired, lol, my semi-built type 1 motor from jerry at NW connecting rods does 70mph on the freeway all day long and drives up and over large/long mountain passes doing 60, you need to remember that the type 1 was used in vw buses since the very beginning, the type 4 in the broad history of buses was relatively short lived, only running from 72-80.5 or so, i'm sure someone will correct me as to the correct dates, imo there is nothing wrong with a type one motor in a bus and mine works just fine.

i've never been up against a fresh type 4, but my type 1 slightly modified either keeps up or murders my buddies with the later bays, and for all intents and purposes that's good enough for me, i'm not looking to win any drag races.

the only mods for power i've done is dual carbs and a super torque cam, everything else is bone stock except for the full flow, and i also run a complete '79 westy interior in my bus as well, so weight differences should be negligible......

and that's my take on it, i can't make a 100% statement as type 1 vs type 4 because I've never been able to have 2 that are in the same condition side by side , so it's tough to say imo, and i'm sure on paper type 4 is much better, i just have never come across a type 4 that runs as well as my type 1 if that makes any sense. lol

really i would just suggest riding around in some more type 1's before you jump to the conclusion that type 1's are no good for buses.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
'71 westie "the wanderer"

[Stuartzickefoose]

[Westy Steve]

Interesting information. I need to try to figure out if a stroked motor or a 1776 with a torque cam can duplicate the powerband of a typical Type IV engine. I'm going to research that. Low end torque is really important.

If the low end torque can't be duplicated with a Type I engine, then the transmission would need to be swapped out of a later bay to compensate for the need for the higher RPM. So my noobish question is...how difficult is it to put the early transmission (i.e., 1968, 1970 etc.) in a later bay?
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I love my Bay Westy!
'74 Westy
'62 Beetle Ragtop

[SGKent]

If you want reliability and more power keep the T4 motor. If you want easy access to parts put in a T1 motor. If you want perfection buy a new car. If you have too much time on your hands get a new girlfriend or take up golf.

[Shaun Murray]

I did the exact opposite in my bay, switched from a 3 rib in my '72 to a later 6 rib. You will need the shift rod and starter because they different on the later 6 rib. If you use a '68-'71 3 rib transmission you will need a bellhousing swap because the early ones don't have mounting lugs for the center mount on top of the bellhousing. The shift rod in early bays are about 1" longer than late bays I believe. I'm sure you could extend it to fit also. You will need a 3 rib or type 1 starter because 6 rib starters have a longer nose due the larger bellhousing and clutch in the late bays. Personally I'd stick with the type 4, they are much stronger. I just stock up on type 4 parts that way I always have them handy, because they are a little harder to come by.

[Desertbusman]

If I was installing one in a late bay I'd use the standard 3 rib/T-1 package and mount it in the late bay just like it mounts in an early bay. Trans nose mount and engine rear moustache bar. No center mount.
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The best thing that anyone can do for their Bay is get the Volkswagen of America Official Service Manual published by Robert Bentley. Without it the bus is pretty much doomed.

[theizzardking]

[Westy Steve]

OK, I found these dyno results:

http://offroadvw.net/bajawes/V6_baja/compare.html

http://www.p914.com/p914_hp_graph.htm

Pay attention to the VW Type I 1915 cc results and the 1.8L and 2.0L GC results.

I made a table which I don't have time to post here, but the upshot of it is this.

The 1915 is a ridiculous big bore engine that moves most of its optimal power to the top end. Peak horsepower is developed at about 4800, which is about the same as the Type IV. Even so, it has comparable torque to the Type IV 2.0 Liter engine. More in fact at 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 RPM. The HP of the 1915cc engine also overtakes the 2.0Liter engine at around 3000 HP.

So that made me think, what if you made an engine without much machining, but got your HP from stroking? (a 1915 isn't stroked) Perhaps use a 74mm stroke and a 88mm bore (with slip ins) to get 1800cc. Same size displacement as the old 1.8L Type IV engine, but it would be purposefully made to be torquey....and it's not so oversized as to run really hot. Maybe mods could be made to keep the temperature down. Anyone here put an 1800 Type I in a later model bus? Seems like it could compete with the Type IVs without all the $$$.
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I love my Bay Westy!
'74 Westy
'62 Beetle Ragtop

[babysnakes]

All said above is true and good. I'm running a 1600 in my '72 with the 3 rib. Dual carbs and W-100 cam. It's my 2nd '72 built the same way. The 1st one we went from S. Fla. to the Blueridge Pkwy and on to Pittsburgh and back. No speed demon for sure. Normal highway for me is 60mph. That being said, I'm now putting a rebuilt T-4 2.0 FI into my '79 due to reading of many happy people with the same setup. I don't think you can go wrong either way, just different. If you go T-4 will you go FI or carbed? BTW I went with the T-1 conversions due to $ concerns, there will be a point down the road I will put a T-4 in the '72 and am pondering putting a T-4 in the SC.
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'69 SC under resto
'72 deluxe daily
'78 Westy
'71 super vert

Luftwagens
“If you end up with a boring miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest, or some guy on television telling you how to do your shit, then you deserve it.” FZ

[aryue]

[spiggs]

I had a similar decision to make. I have a 69 with a good longblock but old and tired exhaust, carb, intake, shroud. Been collecting parts but kept thinking a Type 4 upgrade might be a better path. However I would have to do it on an extreme budget and I am afraid that I may not have the cash to do it right. So I came to the conclusion that a well done Type 1 is going to be better than a cut corners Type 4. The other consideration is its not a camper and I only use my Bus for short trips around town so a Type 1 may be just fine at any rate. So the current plan is to stick with the Type 1 and see how it goes, if I get 40,000 reliable put-put miles out of it I'll be real happy. Of course if someone wants to trade a 1600 DP longblock plus $500 for a complete Type 4 conversion let me know.

[webwalker]

This is a 'how'd they do that' question.

Did VW put a completely different wiring harness into the European models that they sold with the Type1 1600, or did they use the standard harness just to the compartment and use a different harness for the engine? I have yet to be able to dig out a straight answer on this. All of the wiring harness diagrams here come from the American market as far as I can tell. How did they do it in the UK and Europe?

M
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This Type4 engine brought to you by Wilson, Bentley, Muir & Muldoon
1977 CE1 Transporter Deluxe
Click to view image

[notchboy]

[aryue]

[ccpalmer]

[nodrenim]

If 200 pounds is going to make that much of a difference, I'd leave my 200 pound girl friend home!

[webwalker]