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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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 Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| luVWagn wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
Ok.
I will post pictures of the real deal 944s I have.
You will see, than when compared to $75 944 joints that they are much much stronger and the quality is that of 930s.
A $75 joint is a $75 joint.
The Porsche Guys post regularly pictures of warn parts after very few miles, just as Vanagon Volks do.
The quality has fallen off serverly.
I hope I am wrong and $75 joints work for lifted to the max vans. |
This wasn't the question I asked, to which you definitively stated the 944 and vanagon gkn CVS are *identical*. Chris and others say otherwise.
So will you admit to being wrong? |
Order them up and lets see what you get for $75 from Pelican.
Post the pictures and measurements.
I am not saying anything until you follow through on what you said about buying one of each to compare....that you conveniently deleted 
Chris didn't order his joints from Pelican, ask him |
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newfisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012
Posts: 1764
Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| newfisher wrote: |
| Insyncro, thanks for the response even though my wallet doesnt like the answer. I guess its a joint a month and then some boots. By the end of the summer I should probobly be ready for them and have pieced them together by then. The good used one zip tied underneath will be a back up for now. |
Consult Christopher via pmail, he will point you to good quality at a more cost effective rate. |
I emailed him earlier today and he responded QUICK! Sounds like this discussion is confirming his recomendation. I dont intend to beat on my van, but I do flogg the skinny pedal on every other rig I own. I have just added enough weight to my GL tintop that I now want to lift it an inch or so and with the frankensuby, taller than stock tires, a small change in axle geometry it makes sense to spend some coin on some good parts. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Cool.
Looking forward to hearing how the install goes and your impressions of the joints. |
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| luVWagn wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
Ok.
I will post pictures of the real deal 944s I have.
You will see, than when compared to $75 944 joints that they are much much stronger and the quality is that of 930s.
A $75 joint is a $75 joint.
The Porsche Guys post regularly pictures of warn parts after very few miles, just as Vanagon Volks do.
The quality has fallen off serverly.
I hope I am wrong and $75 joints work for lifted to the max vans. |
This wasn't the question I asked, to which you definitively stated the 944 and vanagon gkn CVS are *identical*. Chris and others say otherwise.
So will you admit to being wrong? |
Order them up and lets see what you get for $75 from Pelican.
Post the pictures and measurements.
I am not saying anything until you follow through on what you said about buying one of each to compare....that you conveniently deleted
Chris didn't order his joints from Pelican, ask him |
I have four of them on my van and they are certainly not the same CV as sold by VC or GW.
YOU stepped in here and made the claim that Pelican is selling something other than what they advertise.
YOU provide the pics or measurements to prove your statement..
or simply bow out of this thread.
All you've done is confuse matters.. where you could have definitively clarified something.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:33 am Post subject: |
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From earlier in this thread:
| Quote: |
Ok, update.
Anyhow, no 944 axles for me. I ordered what were listed as new OE GKN/Lobro axles for an 86 Porsche 944 from a reputable Porsche online store. What showed up were not new or even used shafts with new CVs' These were refurbished/reman axles. The axles had rust pits that were sand blasted, painted black and that paint was peeling off. One CV had what looked like hammer marks around the outer cage. There was a Lobro manufacture date of 02/04, but someone with a dremmel had engraved their own serial number. They would have worked though,
Well they are on there way back to the reseller for credit. I ordered 4 Vanagon joint kits from IMC and will reuse my original axles. Mine is a 2WD and I don't see the articulation that a syncro will, so for now, I will live with what the VW engineers thought would work. Thank you |
PP issued a refund promptly, but charged a restocking fee and did not refund the freight. I contacted them back and they did then completely refund the money. I wish it had worked out.
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| rsxsr wrote: |
From earlier in this thread:
| Quote: |
Ok, update.
Anyhow, no 944 axles for me. I ordered what were listed as new OE GKN/Lobro axles for an 86 Porsche 944 from a reputable Porsche online store. What showed up were not new or even used shafts with new CVs' These were refurbished/reman axles. The axles had rust pits that were sand blasted, painted black and that paint was peeling off. One CV had what looked like hammer marks around the outer cage. There was a Lobro manufacture date of 02/04, but someone with a dremmel had engraved their own serial number. They would have worked though,
Well they are on there way back to the reseller for credit. I ordered 4 Vanagon joint kits from IMC and will reuse my original axles. Mine is a 2WD and I don't see the articulation that a syncro will, so for now, I will live with what the VW engineers thought would work. Thank you |
PP issued a refund promptly, but charged a restocking fee and did not refund the freight. I contacted them back and they did then completely refund the money. I wish it had worked out. |
Hi Mark,
Thank you for posting.
The axle kits appear to be the better known and understood QC problem.
I ordered 4 individual (as listed) 944 CVs and received what certainly look to be 4 944 CVs.. I assembled them with my OEM axle shafts.. and the only problems experienced have been the boots.
To date, I have seen no posts with a definitive example of ordering what is listed as an individual 944 CV and then being shipped a Vanagon CV, instead.
(That is not to say that GKN/Lobro CV quality may not be slipping.. But that is its own topic.)
If this has occurred, I'd certainly be among the first to raise the red flag.. but even when researching this more than a year ago.. there is as much, if not more, confusion and non-answers on other vehicle forums as here on the Samba.
Now it is very possible that I among a minority of people who were sent actual 944CVs when I ordered 944 CVs from Pelican.. maybe I just got lucky.. But no one else has stated that to be their first-hand experience.
(or I have missed any such post).
Again.. this appears to be an issue of the 944 axle sets (2 CVs pre-installed on an axle) at a cost of $200+.. and NOT an issue of the individual GKN/Lobro 944 CV/boot kits.
(although I can attest to the fact the boots are junk, regardless)
If some one has ordered these $75 ($200 (list) GKN "944" CV kits (not axle kits) and has proof the individual CV is NOT a 944 CV.. I'd be more than happy to step back from the keyboard.. as it is in the best interest of all forum members to be given accurate first hand accounts.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:19 am Post subject: |
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The Lobro 944 CVs I have on my Syncro are working fine for about the last 10K miles.
My rear ride height is 21"
At full droop my rear axles are at 17 degrees. I have fox shocks, they allow 1" extra down travel (3 degrees more than stock).
At full droop, wheel hanging in the air, a Syncro with OME shocks, rear axle goes to just 14 degrees.
back on page 5 is a link to max operating angles of different CVs.. see
Here are CV dimensions http://blindchickenracing.com/How_to/CVJoints_Axles/cv_joints_101.htm Type 2 is stock, type 4 is 944
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:28 am Post subject: |
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What is up with the boots? I would think the vanagon boots would interchange with the 944 and VW thing joints. It would be highly unlikely the PP is selling individual CV joints as 944 joints and shipping bus/vanagon ones in place. From this thread, the difference if not obvious should be measureable.
That said, the shafts I got were just resold by PP. They were unaware that what shipped did not match their web description. I had a similar problem with another vendor that listed front inner syncro boots that included the cv spacers. What showed up were boots that were dropped shipped from IMC the same company I deal with locally. Again, they were unaware that the description on their website did not match what was listed, they were only middle manning the part. They too gladly refunded my money.
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Jon_slider wrote: |
The Lobro 944 CVs I have on my Syncro are working fine for about the last 10K miles.
My rear ride height is 21"
At full droop my rear axles are at 17 degrees. I have fox shocks, they allow 1" extra down travel (3 degrees more than stock).
At full droop, wheel hanging in the air, a Syncro with OME shocks, rear axle goes to just 14 degrees.
back on page 5 is a link to max operating angles of different CVs.. see
Here are CV dimensions http://blindchickenracing.com/How_to/CVJoints_Axles/cv_joints_101.htm Type 2 is stock, type 4 is 944 |
At 18" ride height on my 2WD;
With 944 CVs at full droop, my axles hit the swing arm.. (I also use a longer shock)
I need limiting straps to prevent that contact.. but it is no longer the CV that binds up.... the 944 CV turns freely right up to the point of axle/swing arm contact.
My old "vanagon" CVs would bind up before the axle touched.. which would obviously destroy them in short order.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| rsxsr wrote: |
| What is up with the boots? |
I have torn thru 3 "new" boots in the last 5-6000 miles.. 2 were on outer CVs one on the inner.
The originals were pressed in similar service and have held up much better.
I'll be trying Chris's offerings for boots.
I like to have a few extras laying around.
The boots are not a deal breaker, by any means.. just an FYI, that if one installs the 944CV "kit" using the boot supplied in the kit, they may need to replace it soon
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17155
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Do you secure the small end of the boot with the provided clamp? I don't. We found from racing that leaving that clamp off seemed to add life to the boots. In racing, you'd get a lot of heat buildup and I think the boots would pop. We also tried inserting the small red tube that comes with WD40 etc into the small end to act as a vent.
In your case, do you think the boot is operating at an angle it is not designed to tolerate and being stretched too much then ripping. What I am seeing on replacement boots is actual hairline cracking in the boots sort of like dry rot. The Rockford boots seem like a good alternative.
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j_dirge
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:06 am Post subject: |
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I did ziptie the new boots.. thinking.. "hey! they are new!"
I do a stream crossing a few times a year and would like to think I can keep most of the water out..
But I left the ties off the second install.
I think its a combination of more extreme travel and poor or old rubber in the boots.
When I removed the first failed one, I did see lots of cracks like you mention.
Makes one wonder how long these parts have been on the shelves.
_________________
-89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
| danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a copy of a PM that I sent to another member about this subject. It's about as clear as I can make it.
I have seen online auto parts stores selling individual CVs intended for use on a 944 but with the Vanagon part number listed, but I have also seen online stores, like Pelican, that list the correct Porsche part number.
I have personally purchased new "944" complete axles that came with Vanagon spec CVs. And these are LOBRO-brand assemblies. And what is even weirder is that the Vanagon-spec CVs that came on those axles are not the same GKN/LOBRO CVs that you get when you purchase Vanagon-spec GKN/LOBRO CV joints individually.
I buy my GKN/LOBRO CVs directly from WorldPac and they have always come as the correct CV for a 944, but I have received a mix of poor quality and good quality Lobro CVs when ordered for a Vanagon.
In other words, yes, there at least three, maybe up to five, GKN/LOBRO 33-spline CVs that will fit the Vanagon. There may be more to it than this, but below is how and what I have seen.
944-spec LOBRO:
1. Good quality CVs that can be purchased individually
2. Poor quality CVs that come on the pre-built axles assemblies
Vanagon-spec LOBRO:
3. Good quality CVs that can be purchased individually
4. Poor quality CVs that can be purchased individually
5. Poor quality CVs that come on the pre-built axle assemblies
The two pre-built LOBRO axle assemblies (944 and Vanagon) and the poor quality individually purchased Vanagon CVs may all be the same CVs (they look the same, but I haven't measured them or checked them out that closely), but they do have different part numbers. This may be simply due to axle length or it may mean nothing. Not sure!
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4x4BNB
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Joined: January 08, 2012
Posts: 274
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:51 am Post subject: |
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Three questions....
What is the correct Porsche part number (s) for the individual 944 33 spline cv's?
And....i haven't heard any mention of the front inner cvs on the Syncro....are they not the same as the rear? Do they not droop as much as the rear? |
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smurfpike
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2010
Posts: 220
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| newfisher wrote: |
Thanks Insyncro..too rich for my blood.
I did contact Chris at T3 and probobly going that route.
| smurfpike wrote: |
| newfisher wrote: |
| Bump for the best source for 944 cv's and the best quality boots. |
I get mine new at AutoZone only because they carry a lifetime warranty, so when one breaks I take it in and replace it for free. So far I haven't had any problems and do not do extreme off roading. I want to say they were about $140-$150 last year so I am not sure what they cost now.
I kept my old CV's for a quick fix to get home as a spare and the core charge was so cheap it was worth keeping them
They do carry all 4 cv axles for the front make sure you get new ones since the rebuilds are incorrect for some reason. |
All I can find at Autozone are the rebuilds. |
The rears you should be able to find its the Vanagon Syncro fronts that you do not want to buy rebuilt, sorry I must not have clarified
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
At 18" ride height on my 2WD;
With 944 CVs at full droop, my axles hit the swing arm.. (I also use a longer shock) |
Excellent point! Its the Shocks, not the ride height, that controls the full droop angle. (whatever shock that is, I suggest you tell people to avoid it)
I have measured a syncro with OME shocks in front and the max droop angle was 17 degrees.
With my Fox shocks (1" more travel than stock) my front angle at full droop is 20 degrees. 3 degrees more than with OMEs. Note 20 degrees exceeds the 17 degree max operating angle of a stock CV, however, I run stock axles in front, so far no issues. I happen to be at 20" front ride height.
But its the Shock, not the Spring or ride height, that determines the full droop angle, as j_dirge just helped me realize.
I got my 944 CVs individually from Van-Cafe and have requested the part number, which I will post here shortly.
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Jon_slider wrote: |
| I got my 944 CVs individually from Van-Cafe and have requested the part number, which I will post here shortly. |
Per Van-Cafe the
944 CVs are 944-331-901-00 and the
stock vanagon CVs are 211-598-101
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thasty07
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2014
Posts: 310
Location: Bend, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Has anyone just pulled the CVs off of a 944 from a junkyard and rebuilt them? Or would that be a no-no? |
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newfisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012
Posts: 1764
Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Following John Sliders advice and sourcing them through Christopher at T3, I ordered a complete set with the Parker boots and the super duper grease. WOW these boots are nice. Joints bolted up and all is good under suby power now! |
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termuehlen 
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2012
Posts: 994
Location: Redwood City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Can I get some clarification on the correct installation orientation of each of the CV joint components? I have two sources that I trust and they don't seem to match.
On the first page of this thread, there are photos indicating the following is correct:
| Quote: |
> with the CV joint on the axle backwards
This first pcture shows the cv installed wrong. The shoulder of the star belongs on the boot side, not as pictured, on the flange side aka axle end. In addition the Cv cage is flipped wrong side out, and the boot side of the outer ring was flipped wrong, facing the axle end
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
This next pic shows the star correctly installed, the cage facing correctly
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
and the outer ring oriented properly, with single groove towards axle end
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Note the B for big, in the above pic, refering to the wide shoulder in the outer cv ring, in anticiparion of clocking the Cv installed on the other end of the axle shaft, by lineing up the small shoulder on one end to the big shoulder on the other end, when sliding the Cv onto the axle splines
Almost every possible assembly error was made |
On the Van Cafe website,
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_16_9/cv_joint_maintenence.html, the details are a little different:
| Quote: |
| 6. Reassembly is easy, but there are a few things you must pay attention to. Look at all the clean parts. On the outer surface of the outer ball hub, you will see a groove (to the left in photo 6) (CORRECTION -over the years these outer ball hubs have been manufactured with different configurations of grooves and we have not found a consistency to the way that they are assembled). That groove goes away from the axle. On the ball cage, you will notice that one circular edge is chamfered more than the other (photo 7 shows the larger chamfer). The side with the greater chamfer goes towards the axle. On the inner ball hub, you will notice that one of the circular sides has a grooved surface, and sharp edges, whereas the other side has no grooves and more rounded edges (photo 8 shows the rounded edge). The side with the rounded edges goes towards the axle. On some CVs, this side will be the only side with a chamfered edge on the spline edge, though most newer CVs have a chamfered edge on both sides on the spline edge. Finally, put the inner ball hub into the outer ball hub. |
Can someone confirm the correct orientation of the single groove of the outer hub, the chamfered edge of the cage and the smooth side of the inner hub? Thanks!
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