Author |
Message |
74SuperScary Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017 Posts: 156 Location: Springfield MO
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:23 pm Post subject: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
Hey Eveyone. I’m 17 and pretty new to the engine building process. I currently have a 74 Super with a 1500 or 1600dp in it (as far as I’m aware. I haven’t taken the heads off to confirm). I’m looking to get a mild power boost over stock. 5-10hp. With hopefully 1.5-2k or less in parts. The engine will be a daily driver engine a la needs to start in 10-100 degree weather. My current ideas are a set of empi HPMX carbs, Stock internals plus 88 slip ins with a 1.25:1 rocker arm to help take advantage of the extra breathing. I need to keep the heater boxes so bigger valves are pretty well out. A merged header is in order though. I’d like to keep the SVDA dizzy preferably with the electronic ignition that’s already installed. If there’s anything I’m overlooking or any input from well more experienced people then I’d be happy to hear it. If you have any questions to then I’d be happy to answer them. Thanks! (O \_!_/ O) And here’s the car it’s for. Gunther a I call it.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
So you don't want to split the case I assume? It's going to be hard to beat a 1776 for the money. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
74SuperScary Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017 Posts: 156 Location: Springfield MO
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
Yes the case is getting split as I’m doing a full rebuild and it leaks from the center of the halves. I’m trying to avoid machining if I can but ill need the heads machines for 92’s because of the slip ins anyway. But I see what you mean by the 1776. Get 90.5’s in there for more displacement. If you have any idea how much a full head and case machining would cost (I know it will vary by machinist) assuming I need a line-bore and thrust cut that might change my mind. The whole thing is still bouncing between ideas. The only thing I’m dead set on is less than an 1800, must be a daily driver. Other than that I’m open to any input. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
As far as having a machinist jank the case up ,boring the registers is going to be your last concern. A VW shop will bore out the case and heads for under $30 a bore so that's $240.
I would go with a 1776 with dual port heads and a upgraded cam like a cb cheater. I would go either way with dual carbs or have the venturi opened up for the stock single. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
74SuperScary Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017 Posts: 156 Location: Springfield MO
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
And another bit of info. My case is an H1 case. I’m aware of the single relief downfalls but the case isn’t the “doomed” h cases family but it’s no AS41 either if this helps with other decisions then wonderful. A new case just isn’t in the budget at this point. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:34 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
I think single relief case's are okay for under 5k RPM's. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
74SuperScary Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017 Posts: 156 Location: Springfield MO
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
It’s just going to be a warmer street engine so it’ll be under 5k for 99% of the time. The only time my current engine ever goes over is getting on the freeway and when I want to annoy the neighborhood (I have the unbaffled tips) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4343 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
Don't bother with the ratios.
Do you want to build on a single port engine?
Maybe try to find a late case with dual port heads on CL, Samba. Then build on that. In the meantime, your car will still run. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
nsracing Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003 Posts: 9478 Location: NOVA
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
Listen kid - if you want to run the car in winter keep it mild. I ran a bug in my young military days in Minot, ND. HOT-air feed is key to running in dead of winter.
For summer - if you want a more stout motor have that so.
I suggest two engines for each weather condition.
Or. just keep it stock - will carry you a long way.
also, gotta have a budget in mind so it will be easier to figure out things. But if you want to go and buy all the extra doo-dads that does not help ..like chrome..save you money. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
74SuperScary Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017 Posts: 156 Location: Springfield MO
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
It’s a dual port with a single port case (if that makes sense) so I have the DP heads and manifolds and all of that. For all tense and purposes it’s a 1600dp. Has a 34/3 carb on it. Tomorrow if I remember I’ll post a photo of the engine as it sits so you can see everything. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4343 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
Boom. Act quick. https://springfield.craigslist.org/pts/d/73-volkswagen-motor/6733568850.html
Learn what you need to check it, and you'll start with a better foundation. Looks like a late case, as it has the universal mounting holes. It's a late engine if it has two relief plugs underneath and horizontal lines on the case right below the engine stand. As long as it isn't seized it's likely salvageable. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
74SuperScary Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017 Posts: 156 Location: Springfield MO
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
[quote="nsracing"]Listen kid - if you want to run the car in winter keep it mild. I ran a bug in my young military days in Minot, ND. HOT-air feed is key to running in dead of winter.
For summer - if you want a more stout motor have that so.
I suggest two engines for each weather condition.
Or. just keep it stock - will carry you a long way.
— Yeah I’ve figured as much. And a smooth and well running stock engine is better than a bigger engine that doesn’t want to run. And no chrome for me. Not my thing and it’s the death of the cooling system. And speaking of cooking another reason for the rebuild is to the get the thermostat and flaps back in. Barely gets to 150 in the winter maybe 170 on a highway run and it can’t hurt in the summer. Help direct the air across the heads more. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
74SuperScary Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017 Posts: 156 Location: Springfield MO
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
bugguy1967 wrote: |
Boom. Act quick. https://springfield.craigslist.org/pts/d/73-volkswagen-motor/6733568850.html
Learn what you need to check it, and you'll start with a better foundation. Looks like a late case, as it has the universal mounting holes. It's a late engine if it has two relief plugs underneath and horizontal lines on the case right below the engine stand. As long as it isn't seized it's likely salvageable. |
I’ll contact him and see what he says. If it works out it’s a solid case and spare parts so why not. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Type 5 Joe Banned
Joined: January 18, 2003 Posts: 1795 Location: Oregon
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
I wouldn't put money or time into an H case... They are brittle and after heat cycles, overheating, etc... They are the most common to crack.
The only time I would build one is for a restoration where the engine needs to match the vehicle... An H case does not match your car.
Start with the nicest case you can afford. Dual relief AS 21 / 41.
If you only want 5-10 H.P.
Build a solid stock engine with correct rocker geometry, solid rocker shafts, swivel valve adjusters.
Buy a quality extractor exhaust system with a single quiet muffler... I use the Gene Berg one...
This one without the heater boxes, unless you need those too.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1058964
You will have to weld / fabricate the intake pre-heat plumbing... Important and worth doing.
Run a stock dual port intake that has the pre-heat tube cleaned out.
Run the stock thermostat / fan shroud flaps with all the correct hardware.
Concentrate on a correctly tuned carb with a good OEM oil bath airfilter. Attach the warm air pre-heat hose.
Concentrate on a correctly matched ignition... OEM distributor that functions as it should and is tuned for your application.
This will produce a reliable, peppy, fun to drive bug engine, with little maintenance... And achieve your goals. _________________ If you would like to contact me, just email through one of my ads on here...
I don't use the P.M. service on here. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
74SuperScary Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017 Posts: 156 Location: Springfield MO
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
Thanks a massive lot. All of the above has been noted. Hopefully the reins for the knocking motor works out and I can get a good case and if I’m lucky a working thermostat system. Worst comes to I get a grenaded engine (happened before. As21 that turned but when I slit it the whole cam had broke in half and the was a giant crank between 1and two cylinders) but the berg boxes will be a good investment. Higher exhaust flow and still have beat. Sounds good to me. And i have an oil bath with the stove pipe so I can put that in now and probably get a faster warmup just from more fuel being turned into useable energy. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4343 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:25 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
I agree about keeping it stock dimensions. If you want a big bore, the 88mm thick walls are inexpensive. A stock dimension build could net you another 20 hp with more compression, a mild cam or 1.4 rockers on the stock cam, some small carburetors, like 36 IDFs or 40s with 28mm vents, and a small merged header. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
|
Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
1745: 85.5 x 76
CB 2280 "cheater" cam, solid rocker shafts, 1.25:1 on intakes only.
Twin 34 CB carbs with chokes, 26 mm venturis. Twin duals are sweet, but you'd need more cam to justify the investment.
home-ported heads should do for the required hp: just aligning the manifolds, good 3-4-angle valve job, no need for major porting work, keep the diameters on the tight side.
1 3/8 header.
Keep the heat.
No machining required, just a little clearanceing, depending on rods.
That's an all-weather engine, and maintenance is ok, rear plugs are sorta accessible.
Even better would be to run a modified, larger vent stock 34 PICT-4 as per Alstrup's magic combos: good filtering, good pre-heat, good choke, stock access. All good, but you must then make an effort (re-weld a bit) to modify the exhaust header to have real manifold heating: gotta get a better pressure difference across the heating tube. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
StefansBus Samba Member
Joined: November 20, 2015 Posts: 242 Location: Germany
|
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:20 am Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
I think it's hard to beat a 1776 with a modified Solex 34 PICT 3 when it comes to bang for the buck and like stock reliability and ease of maintenance.
You can pretty easily get 70 to 80 horses out of that combo depending on compression ratio, exhaust, cam, head work etc.
Get a German Solex Carb (if your's is a knock-off) preferably from Tim at Volkzbitz. He can make you one with a 28mm venturi. He can also rebuild yours. The single Solex carb will make your life so much easier. No dual or twin carbs to adjust and sycronise. No linkage issues. No cold start issues. easy access to plugs etc. Just so much more convenient for a year round daily driver. Cheaper, too.
Use a mild cam such as the CB 2280 or max 2239. Or no more then a W100 in Engle terms.
Use a high flow intake manifold center piece.
Use a good exhaust with pre-heat.
Use 1.25 rockers on the intake.
Wide mouth pushrod tubes, HD alu push rods.
Full flow the case
Balance the rotating assembly.
That's the basic recipe. Get an experienced VW engine builder to mentor you.
Have fun
Stefan
P.S. The above recipe is not mine but from very well respected builder and samba member, Alstrup. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Rome Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 9653 Location: Pearl River, NY
|
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:41 am Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
Quote: |
It’s a dual port with a single port case (if that makes sense) so I have the DP heads and manifolds and all of that. For all tense and purposes it’s a 1600dp |
Scary, was your current H-case engine converted to the doghouse fan shroud with the doghouse oil cooler, and the wider cooling fan? Or were the corresponding single-port parts used along with the DP heads? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
74SuperScary Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2017 Posts: 156 Location: Springfield MO
|
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:19 am Post subject: Re: New to Engine Building / Engine combo advice |
|
|
I’ll definitely look into the 1776 with a modified centermount and the hot rod 1600. Both of those sound good and with a lot of the suggestions I’m really looking into the 1600 with better breathing. And yes it has the doghouse shroud and oil cooler. It’s a strange engine but it runs everyday so I can’t complain a whole lot. It just leaks (shocker). But that’s getting resolved with the engine build though. And this is the most recent photos of the engine (3 months ago ) as it sat minus the black vac canister on the front of the carb. It was causing a giant vacuum leak so it came off and I put a small aluminum plate kver the hole with the original gasket.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
|