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Dodesvw
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Cheap 1600 upgrades Reply with quote

I've got a completely stock 1600 DP in A 69 bug, and looking to add some horsepower and torque. Currently running a single webber 44. Car is a daily driver. My friend has a 1600 single port with a larger cam, and that seemed to make quite a bit more Power than my stock dual port, so a cam is something i am interested in. What size cam is suitable for an otherwise stock 1600? Would porting and polishing the stock heads be worth it? What kind of power can I expect from these upgrades? Working on a pretty tight budget, thats why i want to stick with the stock bore and stroke. Opinions/experience with this? All advice is greatly appreciated
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MURZI
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My vert has a 1600 in it with 043 heads, stock cam and idfs. It runs pretty hard for what it is.

Throw some 1.4 rockers, single hiv rev springs, on the stock heads, add some 40 idfs and enjoy.... Easy bolt ons accomplished by 12 noon on Saturday. Order the rockers, springs, and pushrods from aircooled.net and eliminate the setup and guessing.
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Dodesvw
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick response. So considering I do switch to a dual carb setup, would the new rockers and valve springs add the same kind of torque as a larger cam? I originally wanted to stick with single carb because I have heard it is difficult to sync them.However, If they will add significant power I am open to dual carbs.
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MURZI
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not just dual carbs.....dual IDF's or Dells. The empi clones work well too. Not a problem to tune on a 1600, the jetting will pretty much wind up text book, 47-50, 115-120, 175 air. The 1.4 on stock cam will net about .440-445 lift. Plenty and easy to do.

My heavy vert has whooped up on a couple larger engines. No one believes it is Stock Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.aircooled.net/vw-performance-easy-mods-bolt-on/
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pretty much the standard quick and cheap is a set up dual Kads or similar, ratio rockers and a decent 1 3/8" header. An SVDA style distributor helps drivability. I have this on my wife's daily driver except that we just have port matched heads instead of the ratio rockers (same effect - better flow through the heads). 57 HP at the wheels, which translates to about 70 at the crank. Very noticable difference.
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MURZI
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gearing on a stock VW can make a HUGE difference too
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally feel that adding ratio rockers to a stock 1600 is not worth the cost of the new parts for the tiny bit of HP gained.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
I personally feel that adding ratio rockers to a stock 1600 is not worth the cost of the new parts for the tiny bit of HP gained.


I red a thread by a guy who flow-test vw-heads, on a stock head he rather put ratio-rockers than a hotter camshaft because the flow is not good enough at high rpm, and the ratio-rockers will give more in the usefull (lower) register.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kjell Roar wrote:
vwracerdave wrote:
I personally feel that adding ratio rockers to a stock 1600 is not worth the cost of the new parts for the tiny bit of HP gained.


I red a thread by a guy who flow-test vw-heads, on a stock head he rather put ratio-rockers than a hotter camshaft because the flow is not good enough at high rpm, and the ratio-rockers will give more in the usefull (lower) register.


That guy clearly did not know what he was talking about. On stock, or mild ported heads for that matter, on an otherwise stock 1600 engine, the torque will DECREASE below 2800 rpm. From thereon & up the torque will come back and also increase about 10% over stock. - sort of extend the power curve by
About same goes for the hp. Below approx 2800 rpm theere will be no gains, above 2800 the hp will increase. It will, as that guy hints to, give some more rpm power and move peak power up by 2-400 rpm dependant on rocker ratio.

On the other hand, if we were talking about say a 1914 with ported heads and stock cam (some actually use that combo) and we added ratio rockers, the powercurve would be improoving from just over idle, due to the fact that this engine will have so much more vacum, so it can exploit the extra flow that comes with the increased valve lift.

Same type of engine with limited carburetion, such as f.i. a 60 hp WBX. Then the power will increase from idle to about 3600 rpm. Above that the carburettor and cam timing are limiting the intake so much that the upper rpm stays the close to the same, with only a few hp increase.

T
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

upping the CR will help with that lost low tq.as can recurving the dist.
yes do the heads with a good valve job(biger valves if you can)add the extra webber or hpmx carb.I wouldny go to the 1.4 but rather 1.33(most 1.25 rockers with the adjuster on the pushrod end I have checked are about 1.33,but that depends on the camlobe, if you go with the 1.4 then lator go with a biger cam you may have too much lift for the springs&need to ge another set of rockers)a good merged header 1 3/8" or 1 1/2"& would do the 1 1/2" so it will work wth a biger motor because your buddy will up grade his again when you blow past him than you will have to do the same.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alstrup, based on your experience what cam do you recommend for a bone stock 1600, 40 Idfs, and the new Chinese casting heads everyone is selling?? Cb cheater cam, w100, ....??? And what static compression ratio??
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Dodesvw
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot guys much appreciated.
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Alstrup
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MURZI wrote:
Alstrup, based on your experience what cam do you recommend for a bone stock 1600, 40 Idfs, and the new Chinese casting heads everyone is selling?? Cb cheater cam, w100, ....??? And what static compression ratio??


I have not seen the new Chinese castings with my fingers yet. But if they match a stock set of 040 I would say anything from a Cheater to a W110, depending on what type of characteristic you want.
For daily drivers where fuel economy is a factor I usually recommend the Cheater, because I for one have gotten very good results with that cam, both in power and consumption. Here I set them up with 8,3-1 on Euro 95. 8,5 will work too on 95, but you need to be 100% on top of you timing and fuel mix. If you are ready to do a little detailing of the heads w. corrected guides, straightened and cleaned up ports and a better seat/valve job, I would also recommend the CB 2239. To me that one is a tad up from the W100. I find it to work very well in a 1600 engine.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a vid of my old 1600 with dual 36 DRLA's (30mm vents), 1.25 rockers, bugpack 1 3/8" header and hideaway muffler, and a 11.5 pound flywheel. Very simple engine, no internal mods, and it got great mileage. I'd average right around 30 mpg mixed highway/city driving it hard, and the best it got was 36.25 mpg pure highway. It ran 10.80 at 63 mph in the 1/8 mile.


Link



My current engine is a 1679cc with a DPR german 69mm crank, thickwall 88's, stock/unported heads, an FK41 cam on 112 lobe centers, .035" deck height, 9.6 static compression ratio, the same 36 DRLA's, a Vintage Speed exhaust, and a stock weight flywheel. I haven't had it on the track yet to see what it runs, but I expect high 9's/low 10's. Haven't had the self control to drive it normally for a whole tank to check the mileage on it yet.


Link

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theastronaut wrote:
Here's a vid of my old 1600 with dual 36 DRLA's (30mm vents), 1.25 rockers, bugpack 1 3/8" header and hideaway muffler, and a 11.5 pound flywheel. Very simple engine, no internal mods, and it got great mileage. I'd average right around 30 mpg mixed highway/city driving it hard, and the best it got was 36.25 mpg pure highway. It ran 10.80 at 63 mph in the 1/8 mile.


Link



My current engine is a 1679cc with a DPR german 69mm crank, thickwall 88's, stock/unported heads, an FK41 cam on 112 lobe centers, .035" deck height, 9.6 static compression ratio, the same 36 DRLA's, a Vintage Speed exhaust, and a stock weight flywheel. I haven't had it on the track yet to see what it runs, but I expect high 9's/low 10's. Haven't had the self control to drive it normally for a whole tank to check the mileage on it yet.


Link


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks theastronaut, do you think that dual 36's are enough bang for the buck? or should i go with dual 40's? they seem to run pretty well in your video
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need for 40's. If you ever upgrade to say a 1776, you could alway change the venturies to 32's or 33's for more flow. They had/have very good driveability with great throttle response on both the 1600 and 1679. They make so much difference that I'll never have another stock carb'd 1600!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And this is perfect example of asking 10 engine builders how to do something and you get 10 different answers and each one is correct..... Laughing Seriously - Like something straighforward like which sealer is best for sealing a case? They wont agree.

Bottom line is find one that you trust and go with their suggestion - Just remember some basic things - the engine is a system - more fuel/air in, needs to get through the heads and out the exhaust. I posted what worked for us and you have lots of good posters on this - pick one and go with it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2012 1:43 am    Post subject: Re: Cheap 1600 upgrades Reply with quote

Dodesvw wrote:
I've got a completely stock 1600 DP in A 69 bug, and looking to add some horsepower and torque. Currently running a single webber 44. Car is a daily driver. My friend has a 1600 single port with a larger cam, and that seemed to make quite a bit more Power than my stock dual port, so a cam is something i am interested in. What size cam is suitable for an otherwise stock 1600? Would porting and polishing the stock heads be worth it? What kind of power can I expect from these upgrades? Working on a pretty tight budget, thats why i want to stick with the stock bore and stroke. Opinions/experience with this? All advice is greatly appreciated


If you down sized your weber to a 40, ran a manifold with good preheat and a exhaust that supplied heat to it, then set up and jetted the carb correctly, finally adding a correctly curved sdva distributor.

You would see a night and day difference in you engine.

Its not just about picking and buying parts, its about being able to tune them. (or tune what you already have)
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