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Pump up Hydraulic lifters upon install?? How to adjust?
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MidWesty79
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Pump up Hydraulic lifters upon install?? How to adjust? Reply with quote

I'm reading through the Wilson book and it suggests pumping up the lifters before installing. I already have the motor together, and right now am trying to adjust the valves before sticking the engine in and firing it up. The lifters are all really squishy and I'm unsure how to adjust them in this state. I read that 3/4 turn after contact for initial settings (before running) then readjust after 20 minutes or so, but right now 3/4 turn after contact leaves a LOT of slop in the rocker. I can grab the rocker and (i assume) squish the lifters a bunch. Any recommendations? Do I have to remove them and pump them up by hand or can I just set them somehow and let the engine pump 'em up?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

read Bentley, the factor orange book supplement if you can find it and this http://www.syncro.org/boston_bob-hydrauli-lifter-lore.html
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MidWesty79
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good article! Due to time constraints I feel I will go ahead and set them at .006" per the article's "past" suggestions. I will run the engine awhile and check the lifters for rigidity. If they feel pumped up I will give them a 1/4 to 1/2 turn. I will recheck them in a few hundred miles. This seems to be a safe alternative.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a new cam? If its stock webcam they recommend 1 full turn preload. Try soaking your lifters in 10w40 over night. I've heard people pumping them in the oil to force oil in lifter. Also heard its a pita and takes 10 minutes a lifter. Boston Bob has article out there on this issue. I would not run my new engine for more tha. A couple minutes with the .006 lash, maybe save that for last resort.
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MidWesty79
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the stock cam. I didn't change the cam, the lifters, rockers, anything. Just new P&C set and heads. The engine has to be up and running tomorrow. I spent the last 13 straight hours on it (finally got the engine back in the bus but not fully hooked up) and I just don't have the strength to go out and pull the lifters out yet tonight. I think I'll run them at .006 for a few minutes to try to purge and pump them, then set them before I drive it at all. If the engine sounds horrible I'll shut it down immediately and readjust them. Hopefully they pump up quickly and it all works out. It would be nice if one thing went right on this install...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Pump up Hydraulic lifters upon install?? How to adjust? Reply with quote

MidWesty79 wrote:
The lifters are all really squishy and I'm unsure how to adjust them in this state. I read that 3/4 turn after contact for initial settings (before running) then readjust after 20 minutes or so, but right now 3/4 turn after contact leaves a LOT of slop in the rocker.


turn the engine over on the starter, as part of the priming process as if the engine had not been fired before, this may go a little ways to pumping up the lifters. if they did not make noise before you started the engine work they should pump up fine but you may have to listen to them clatter for a bit. like i said if they worked before they should be fine now.

on lifters that are in good condition and hold their internal pressure 3/4 turn works perfect for lifter preload, as the final adjustment. the less preload the better.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the lifters are bone dry the valves may not open enough for the engine to start with the valves set to have some lash. If the lifters are fairly full of oil then setting them with a tad of lash does work to get them to pump up quickly.. Don't know why this works, but it does.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Pump up Hydraulic lifters upon install?? How to adjust? Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
on lifters that are in good condition and hold their internal pressure 3/4 turn works perfect for lifter preload, as the final adjustment. the less preload the better.


This is just one more thing I do not understand. Is it because of the rocker geometry? With more preload the lifter should actually weigh less which should make the valve train function a bit better.
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MidWesty79
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
If the lifters are fairly full of oil then setting them with a tad of lash does work to get them to pump up quickly.. Don't know why this works, but it does.


I think it's because it allows the lifter's piston to run it's full length of travel, purge air and fill with oil. At least that's what the Boston Bob article says... makes sense...
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MidWesty79 wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
If the lifters are fairly full of oil then setting them with a tad of lash does work to get them to pump up quickly.. Don't know why this works, but it does.


I think it's because it allows the lifter's piston to run it's full length of travel, purge air and fill with oil. At least that's what the Boston Bob article says... makes sense...


For some reason it is the actual slop in the valve train that makes the difference, otherwise you would just set a light preload instead of leaving lash.
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germansupplyscott
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Pump up Hydraulic lifters upon install?? How to adjust? Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
With more preload the lifter should actually weigh less which should make the valve train function a bit better.


too much preload and the valves never close and the engine runs poorly.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I where you I would listen to Scott's advice. He knows what he's talking about. If your lifters where fine before they they should be fine now. Hopefully the lifters went back in same spot as you took them from or you will have bigger things to worry about other than pumping up.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Pump up Hydraulic lifters upon install?? How to adjust? Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
With more preload the lifter should actually weigh less which should make the valve train function a bit better.


too much preload and the valves never close and the engine runs poorly.


That is obviously true of any hydraulic lifter, but with VW Transporters you should be able to set the lifters by the book, which is far from being fully compressed and have them work just fine as they would still have about 2mm of compression left and should never have the lifter held open, but people claim that less preload works better but never can explain exactly why this is so and how the engine benefits by having done so.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: Pump up Hydraulic lifters upon install?? How to adjust? Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
people claim that less preload works better but never can explain exactly why this is so and how the engine benefits by having done so.


i tired to explain it.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Pump up Hydraulic lifters upon install?? How to adjust? Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
people claim that less preload works better but never can explain exactly why this is so and how the engine benefits by having done so.


i tired to explain it.


Yes but your explanation makes no sense unless you have bottomed the lifter out which is about 4 turns in IIRC. While the original spec is two turns in which leaves about 2mm of self adjustment in either direction.

People seem to recommend everything between 1/2 to 1 1/2 turns while the book calls for 2 turns. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on hydraulic lifters, but 2 turns worked for many, perhaps most, for many years and now is suddenly not okay any more.

In my own experience I tried setting a WBXer at 1/2 turn many years ago and ended up with the valve stems and adjusters beat to heck in short order because of it, yet now people say this is the way to go.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

germansupplyscott wrote:
i tired to explain it.
Laughing Scott, are you saying you tried to explain it or got tired of explaining it? Laughing

Are VW hydraulics designed any differently than early American hydraulic lifters? We had hassles but not like dub guys do now. New lifters were great, worn out ones were troublesome and you lived with the clatter or replaced them. You took them apart, cleaned and inspected them and then pumped them up manually before installing. Super cleaning and filling with good oil solved most of the problems. Varnish buildup was a concern then but that's no problem these days with different oils. Manually pumping and watching air bubbles while submerged in oil until you couldn't compress them anymore. Maybe a couple easy bumps with an arbor press might have completely finished filling them.

The horizontal orientation versus the somewhat vertical old positioning is making it difficult for you guys. And VW's lube system and galley arangement might not be the most wonderful for feeding lifters. The last ones I did were Wolverine hydraulics with a Sig Erson cam in a Chevy small block. Pump them up manually, set them at zero clearance and then adjust them while it was running. Going down the line of adjusters 3 or 4 times and it was done. Loosen each one until it clattered from the clearance then turning it in the 2 turns or whatever it was. Chevy rockers splattered oil so you put on little anti splatter clips to stop that.

OK, you guys arn't running Chevy's or Wolverine's. But can you do the VW thing differently? I'd sure try cutting up a couple valve covers to catch the oil and let it run back down the pushrod tubes. You could probably eliminate most of the oil splatter and still have good access to the adjusters. Chevy's had a single nut as the pivot for the rockers so the adjusting nut wasn't bouncing. But you can adjust bouncing adjusters once you find the best technique.
Seems like you could do it much easier, accurately, and quicker by doing it dynamicaly and not statically. Does that make sense?
.
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