Blowing oil around the pulley

[jgrexx]

ok i have a question. i have a stock 1600 so an external breather box to the valve covers isn't needed.

these are the parts i've ordered:

i've read that the stock system sucks air in behind the stock pulley through the case out through the oil filler breather tube into the carb.

is it ok to use the empi style oil filler that doesn't have the down tube like the stock oil filler? is it ok to use a sand seal and pulley kit as well? would this mess up the air flow? would it still work properly if i installed the empi oil filler with the breather tube up to the carb and have the sand seal pulley installed?....or is it necessary to have a groove pulley so air can come into the case that way?

i don't really care what is factory stock setup or not i just wanna know what will work and what doesn't.
_________________
1970 Baja Bug
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520964&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[OLD VW NUT]

Air doesn't get sucked up from around the rear pulley. At least that wasn't VWs intent with the small gap at the pulley/case and the worm drive on the pulley - it keeps oil from coming out. It probably carries some air with it but very little.

The sand seal idea is fine.

The crankshaft is pressurized mainly from blow-by past the rings and valve guides. Very little blow-by is present in a well sealed engine and more with a well worn engine. The actual displacement inside the engine case remains relatively constant in a boxer style motor and the ACVW engine is no exception to that. But that blow-by air has to go somewhere. The cam gears are right under that and tends to sling quite a bit of oil around. With small breather hoses such as you are using the blow-by can be accelerated fast enough to carry oil with it. I suspect thats what you've been experiencing with the oil leaking out the pulley area - too much blow-by for the breather hose to content with. You might want to add a breather box to the oil filler neck if oil isn't well controlled after adding those parts.
_________________
71 Ghia Coupe - stock body - no rust! Powered by a 2110 W/Dual HPMX 44's - Rancho Pro Street Transaxle - A/C by Gilmore

Other car - 2013 VW Golf TDI

[jgrexx]

ok thanks for the reply. that makes me feel better. if i couldn't use the parts then that would be $75 down the drain.

like i said the few drops of oil coming out behind the pulley has stopped completely now. i really don't know what the cause was but i didn't change anything and it stopped. the only thing i could think of is maybe there was some dirt in the pulley groove and the shop guy cleaned it out. he did say he didn't notice it clogged up too bad though so i dunno.

another thing may be the oil filler drip tube is open with no rubber duck valve on the bottom of it. i'm sure some air is getting sucked in there which may be slowing the blow by suction of the hose going to the carb. do you think that would cause it to leak behind the pulley?

anyways all i know is the leaking stopped lol. i've been taking it on 55mph highway runs too so if it was gonna leak and have excess blow by it would've done it. i really have no idea but it stopped so who knows???

it had been sitting for awhile at the PO's house so perhaps me driving it every day for a few miles each day has made things to where they are working better??? it's like the more i drove the car the less it leaked until it finaly just stopped leaking altogether.

perhaps if i install the sand seal and new oil filler it will create more vacuum for the blow by gasses to be pulled into the carb. it seems like it would to me since it wouldn't be sucking air so much but just blow by gasses.
_________________
1970 Baja Bug
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520964&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[OLD VW NUT]

I wouldn't worry too much about that little rubber valve in the road draft tube. Its more of a pollution device than anything to aid the proper ventilation of the crankcase and I doubt it has anything to do with oil passing by the pulley. It doesn't take much for the pulley grooves to get clogged up. I think that as you drive the car the rings are re-seating and the valve guides are beginning to do their job once again. Keep driving it but take it easy until you get a feel for what kind of shape the car is in - and by all means enjoy it - they don't make em like that any more!
_________________
71 Ghia Coupe - stock body - no rust! Powered by a 2110 W/Dual HPMX 44's - Rancho Pro Street Transaxle - A/C by Gilmore

Other car - 2013 VW Golf TDI

[jgrexx]

ok thanks alot for your help. i've always wanted a bug growing up and this is my first one. i have driven a few in the past that belonged to friends or whatever but this is my first one to own. i do enjoy driving it very much. it drives totally different than any other car out there. i'm not out there trying to race up and down the road. i just bought it to drive around town and such. i just wanna keep things as simple as i can and have it be as reliable as it can be. the engine seems to be in decent shape and it runs pretty good. the oil leak is the only thing that bothered me but now that that has stopped i'm feeling much better about it.
_________________
1970 Baja Bug
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520964&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Cadaver]

ssdd

it must suck equal to the blow, or it leaks
simple enough.?

if we were standing in the shop with the case open
i could point top the 2 paths Blow-By can flow.
but can't. and now refuse to try.

it is that simple.

on the bug you can, at anytime
get it hot
pull that hose, and check the blow-by at idle and 3000 rpm
it will be small.
try it on a new engine, after break in.
it will be miniscule.
but if the base of those new jugs, bind to the deck spigots. all bets off.
_________________
for sale now.
in Samba classifieds....1968 T1.

[jgrexx]

lol you speak in rhymes or something. it would be better just to talk normal so it makes it easier to understand.

somehow i understand what you are saying though. my hose is not kinked and it is working fine at keeping up with the blow by now.

the sand seal i'm not putting in to stop a leak. although it would keep any tiny drips of oil from coming out of the case which is a good thing. i also don't want the engine sucking air in behind the pulley which means it would be sucking in dirt and dust as well contaminating the oil. i don't know why the engine was designed that way. i've never seen another one that was. they are all sealed up at the crankshaft. if all the other engines work then not having this air coming in behind the pulley shouldn't hurt anything. older cars have oil breathers on them which is basically the same thing as the PCV system. the blow by goes out of the oil filler hose and to the carb. on the other cars the blow by just goes out into the air through the oil breathers. basically the breather boxes you see on vw bugs is doing the same thing. i know every engine is a little different but internal combustion engines are basically the same. they all have pistons, rings, cylinders, crankshafts, cams, etc. and they all have combustion which is the exact same process for every engine ever made.

any excess blow by i do not want coming out behind the pulley throwing oil out. therefore since it can't do that with a sand seal it only has one way to go and that's up to the carb like it's supposed to do to get burned off. rings being ok though there really shouldn't be any excess blow by to begin with. if there is then the solution is new rings or new pistons, honed cylinders, and rings if needed.

the oil mist seperator thing is ok but as long as you run the engine on longer trips once a week or so or drive on the highway a bit then the engine stays hot enough long enough to evaporate all of the water so the drip tube really isn't necessary either.
_________________
1970 Baja Bug
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=520964&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[jgrexx]

[EVfun]

[Cadaver]

the case vents are packed.

did you open the filler cap, and blow in to that vent tube.
i bet you cant, its packed.


that is what id have done , run it open tube. to test... sure..
close the suck side. (pcv valve in intake sure... no air leaks)

same.
the motor has a vent system. it must be free to vent.
make it so.


i cant be sure of source
there are many things that can vent crank case fumes
the filler gasket ring.?
the gasket under the Alt stand stand.?

get the rear of the crank pulley clean, then does it get wet fast?
_________________
for sale now.
in Samba classifieds....1968 T1.

[Max Welton]

EV, I see a few posibilities.

First, the rings may be shot. A leakdown test should prove or disprove that conclusively.

Second, the deflector plate (on the crankshaft inside the case) might have been left off.

Third ... that aftermarket pulley you have may not fit the case properly.

Max
_________________
1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836

[Cadaver]

x2 missing parts.

if the blow by was huge.
removing that hose,runing would have been a " SHOCKING MOMENT"
on some race cars with huge blowby , (on purpose) this is classic.
"Fuelers"

if the vent is free
and the blowbye is ok (your seeing all of it , removed.)
checken and egg, yes, the blowby if excessive will results in the vents
being packed, (just like on ALL ENGINES)
yes, if packed it must go somewhere. why not check the vent for free flow? why not?
FI works different than N/A motors (carbs) im sure you know that.

the disc ring can be inspected, remove pulley, look.
the concave/ convex must be right too.

the pulley has a gross loose fit. 20 thou? think point gap size.
its not a slip fit. at the rim.
but we have posts where the pulley has 1/8inch gap.
throw hat through the gap?
look.
_________________
for sale now.
in Samba classifieds....1968 T1.

[bugbyte]

Eureka! No, that doesn't mean I'm taking a bath!

But yes, my oil loss at the pulley has stopped. Here's my solution.

Early on in the restoration process I found an original charcoal cannister . I refilled it with new activated charcoal and hooked it up under the right rear wheel well The thin vent line from gas tank, and the two larger hoses. The one coming from the side of the fan shroud to cannister, and the other returning to the side of the air filter housing. It seemed reasonable to assume that this flow of air could be interferring with the flow of blow-by air to the carb. So I disconnected and corked the two large hoses and the side of the air filter. - AND NOW no more oil blowing out in front of the crank pulley. The engine compartments been dry now for 2 weeks The first time ever.

[EVfun]

Well I tried a few more things and didn't seem to find anything yet. I had the vent on the oil filler open to the atmosphere and it still blew oil from around the crank so I verified that the breather was open by fishing a wire through it and out the oil filler. There are some tight turns in the path, naturally, but the path is open and clear. I tried adding about a cup of oil to the running engine (it was about a pint low) and it took the oil quickly with only slight spatter kickback, so I don't think that is plugged. It has some blow-by, but it is a small amount that is hard to feel unless I plug the vent with my thumb for a second.

The F.I. engine has some differences in the stock venting system. There is no PVC valve and the only vent is a 7/8 inch line that goes from the base of the oil filler to the intake boot after the air flow meter but before the throttle body. The alternator stand and intake manifold are joined to each other and the oil filler is a plastic piece attached to the alternator stand. I have the vent line off of the oil filler and the intake side capped off so the engine doesn't take in air that hasn't been measured by the air flow meter.

The engine runs very nice with impressive low end torque, stronger at low rpms than even a single port 1600 with stock carb. I've never seen a hint of smoke from the engine. It seems to blow oil a lot worse at high rpms and high loads, usually worst after a freeway drive or after I've driven it (my wife is kinder to the throttle.) But it blows a lot of oil -- I've had it drip onto the back bumper from the inside of the engine cover when I open it. I'm blowing about 1 quart every 2000 miles out of the engine. I suspect the car sat for quite a while as it is running better and better as it gets driven, and the fuel gauge is starting to work right again. It used to drop to E when it got just above the 1/2 tank mark (varnish line on the sender I'm guessing.)

That is an interesting fix bugbyte. I have that line from the fan shroud to the charcoal can and then back to the air filter housing, but I don't think that could effect crankcase venting on my car right now because the the intake system isn't currently connected to the crankcase vent. I guess I'm going to have to pull the pulley and take a look behind it, but everything appears stock from the outside and I've never pulled a Bug pulley with the engine in the car before.
_________________

[jwold]

[EVfun]

The spewing oil hit with a vengeance today! I have left the crankcase open so I know that line isn't plugged. I think it blew out a cup of oil in 25 miles on the freeway. It was dry around the open crankcase vent. It was running down the rear apron after my wife parked it in the garage. It made quite a mess on the back bumper when I opened the engine cover.

I could pull the pulley off, but is there anything in there I could actually fix short of tearing down the engine? It is the stock pulley and I don't think the engine has been apart. It could be blow by but the oil filler cap flutters (rattles against the filler neck) if you unscrew it and hold it next the the opening -- that is usually an indication that blow by is O.K. I've driven some really tired old Bug engines before and never had the crank pulley spew. Oh, leak a little but mostly drip from the tin under the car as it drains, never coat the engine cover.

I am going to pull the oil filler/breather thing off the side of the alternator stand and get a better look in there but I don't think it's a problem. I can add oil there fine. It has made such a mess I guess I'm going to have to pressure wash the engine down after a good coat of Simple Green. I'm not real inclined to spend much of my time fixing it. It's not an electric car. I'd rather take it to an air cooled specialist in the Everett or Seattle area and work overtime. Still, I need to figure out what I'm taking it in for.
_________________

[jwold]

[Max Welton]

[EVfun]

[Max Welton]

The compression test can't tell the difference between a bad valve (which can't cause blow-by) and bad rings (which can).

A leakdown test is a better diagnostic for this case. Leaking rings will be clearly audible in the crankcase (listen at the oil filler).

Max
_________________
1967 Type-3 Fastback
Under the Knife https://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=151582
Home Stretch https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=767836