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workinprogress
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2011
Posts: 14
Location: Tempe, AZ
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 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:06 am Post subject: Burning through dizzy caps. |
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And we're back to the hate portion of the love/hate relationship with my car. I apologize in advance if this has been covered, but it's 4am and the search function isn't going well for me.
It's a 1970 standard with pertronix and a 009 dizzy. The electronic ignition was replaced a few months ago, and the car has only been started every couple of days since (mainly because I'm in arizona and it's still 100 degrees outside.)
Anyway, got the car out of the shop, everything running great, save for some hesitation off idle because the carb needs to be rejetted, but other than that it was great. Started her up one day, started misfiring. Pulled the plug wires off the cap one by one, sure enough cylinder 2 wasn't firing. Replaced the dizzy cap, everything was back to normal. A couple weeks later finally got her out of the backyard and took her for a testdrive around the neighborhood. Get about 4 blocks and it starts misfiring again, do the same test and cylinder 3's not firing. I haven't replaced the cap again yet, but I'm pretty sure it's fried with less than a dozen starts and less than a mile total driving on it.
Now, the motor has always shaken quite a bit when it's running, even on all cylinders, (though much, much worse when it's only running on 3). The only thing I can figure is that the motor shaking (and thus the dizzy shaking) is screwing with the rotors rotation and causing it to prematurely wear down the contact points on the cap, so I figure my motor mounts are pretty well shot. Is this probably the case or am I completely off base?
I appreciate any help, and apologize if this is a bit poorly written. Like I said, 4 am and all.
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1970 VW Bug Sedan
Sunroof with pop-outs
1600 SP with pertronix ignition
1.25 Rockers |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76909
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Shaking quite a bit tells me the idle is too low or the internal parts are way out of balance.
Are you using a Bosch cap or is it another brand? if another, does it have copper or aluminum contacts?
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Why do you suspect the cap? Is it visibly damaged? In that case, you probably have the wrong cap. The end of the rotor should never hit the cap, no matter what kind of vibrations you have.
Is it a Bosch 009? German? Brazilian? Or a Chinese "clone"? There are many different kinds of "009"-style distributors, and many different distributor caps to choose from, some poorly made.
What kind of plug wires are you running? |
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Cadaver
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Joined: April 24, 2012
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:42 am Post subject: |
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My suggested list of items to check:
Correct firing order?
Rotor seated all the way down?
Confirm point gap/dwell. What setting are you using?
Idle timing? Timing at 3500rpm?
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
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Cadaver
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Joined: April 24, 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:01 am Post subject: |
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he dont have points. he has HALL.
My 1 line
a full tune up, 30k,60k by the book with 9001 bosch wires.?
i too have a list of thing to check, near endless.
in fact on my car, all were wrong, every point. (never surprised me, either)
try back to stock, its AMAZING how well it works, keep comp/pert-ufires.
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Last edited by Cadaver on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:40 am; edited 2 times in total |
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OLD VW NUT
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Joined: February 23, 2011
Posts: 2776
Location: High Desert of Washington 98823
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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I've had a few coils for ACVWs over the years that required an external resistor to keep the voltage down. Maybe you have one of these coils and have no resistor? Check the cap for copper posts - the aluminum ones are junk.
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Cadaver
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Joined: April 24, 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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lots of DIzzy parts. pickone
find one that fits your known 009 , lots of 009s,, so pick careful.
http://www.jbugs.com/category/vw-ignition-distributors-parts.html
the wrong rotor my have to be filed down.
ask pertronix for help, but tell them what 009 it is, not just its an 009
or they wont know either. see?
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Last edited by Cadaver on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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workinprogress
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Joined: April 06, 2011
Posts: 14
Location: Tempe, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for the confusion in my first post, 4am posting isn't my strong suit.
As for the cap being "fried" I just meant no longer working, not actually burnt, and it's copper contacts.
It's a bosch blue coil, bosch 009 distributor and pertronix point replacement electronic ignition. When I replaced the the cap and rotor again a couple weeks ago (both bosch) everything went back to being kosher. Then as I said, less than a dozen starts and one trip around the neighborhood the same problem occurred, just on a different cylinder. Anytime I've replaced plugs, wires, cap, rotor, coil, etc. I've always used bosch parts. The only reason I suspect the cap and rotor is because replacing them fixed the problem last time, until I took it around the block.
Full tune up was done when it was last taken to the shop (doug's bugs and bunnies if anyone's in AZ), and since then it's only been started and let idle, and the one trip around the block.
Rotor seated properly, 1-4-3-2 firing order, haven't done the timing since I got it from the shop, but they haven't done me wrong so far, so I'm hoping that's correct as my timing light's shot at this point.
As for how much the motor shakes, probably about 3/4" in either direction, and it just gets stupid when it's misfiring (2" or so roughly). Also, I somehow managed to forget to mention in my first post, the motor is on it's last legs with metal shavings in the oil, and I know that certainly isn't helping the situation. So at this point anything is just to keep it going until a full rebuild gets done.
Again, I apologize that this isn't my most coherent posting. I will get to my parent's house in the morning and confirm that it's a bosch 009, (brazillian I believe, but not 100% sure) and probably head to BAP to pick up another new cap and rotor for it.
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1970 VW Bug Sedan
Sunroof with pop-outs
1600 SP with pertronix ignition
1.25 Rockers |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| workinprogress wrote: |
| It's a bosch blue coil, bosch 009 distributor and pertronix point replacement electronic ignition. |
Not all "Bosch Blue" coils are the correct coils for VWs.
You want the one with the 3-ohm internal ballast resistor. If you measure resistance between the small (+) and (-) terminals you should read close to 3~4ohms. Less than this and too much current will pass though the coil. This causes higher voltage sparks, but also tends to burn up both mechnical and electronic points as more current flows though them and they tend to "fry".
You mention that the distributor cap you removed looked good. Have you tested the terminals for resistance? There are no arc tracks (usually white)?
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Last edited by ashman40 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:33 am; edited 2 times in total |
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andk5591
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Joined: August 29, 2005
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Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:20 am Post subject: |
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quick coment - on pertronix you may need to shave down the bottom of the rotor. Measure the height as installed and then pull the pertronix ring and reinstall rotor. Asman already told you about the rotor being seated. Suspect that you may have a difference in height. Use a belt sander to remove material from the bottom of the rotor until it fully seats and you have a slight gap between the ring and the rotor. May be unrelated to your issue, but its a possible problem.
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Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
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Cadaver
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Joined: April 24, 2012
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:51 am Post subject: |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UYZBE6QclQ
http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/www.w-p-c.com/buggy8.htm
what on earth does this mean..... ????
| Quote: |
It's a bosch blue coil, bosch 009 distributor |
you do know, right that many of the 009s only advance 15degress?
and that you cant burn all the fuel with late timing , right?
some love that idea. but it needs to be said.... flat spots and general
loss of power from 900 to 2000rpm , but ok at full RPM?
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for sale now.
in Samba classifieds....1968 T1.
Last edited by Cadaver on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:43 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| andk5591 wrote: |
| quick coment - on pertronix you may need to shave down the bottom of the rotor. Measure the height as installed and then pull the pertronix ring and reinstall rotor. Asman already told you about the rotor being seated. Suspect that you may have a difference in height. Use a belt sander to remove material from the bottom of the rotor until it fully seats and you have a slight gap between the ring and the rotor. May be unrelated to your issue, but its a possible problem. |
A good point, and something that is often missed. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15982
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| andk5591 wrote: |
| quick coment - on pertronix you may need to shave down the bottom of the rotor. Measure the height as installed and then pull the pertronix ring and reinstall rotor. Asman already told you about the rotor being seated. Suspect that you may have a difference in height. Use a belt sander to remove material from the bottom of the rotor until it fully seats and you have a slight gap between the ring and the rotor. May be unrelated to your issue, but its a possible problem. |
This is needed for Compufire electronic points too. I have to do this every time I replace the rotor. I wasn't sure if Pertronix needed this as well. Now I know 
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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andk5591
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Joined: August 29, 2005
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Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:01 am Post subject: |
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And I forgot that you needed to do it for comufire. so we BOTH learned something today...... 
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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Cadaver
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Joined: April 24, 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:12 am Post subject: |
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if it dont seat ,its wrong, no matter, that be the first thing you do right
with dizzy modes, make sure the rotor don't hit the top>? 
their instruction sheet dont warn you, but is for a real VW Bosch dizzy
and global searches show few hits. oddly.....
they have no forum , odd that...
seems to me it's a 009 , clone issues. but what does 009 mean?
more like shoe size...?
i contacted them, and like last time, will get a prompt answer.
no reason to guess. (not yet) but still guessing what dizzy you have.
i bet they keep a secret list of BS clone 009s dizzy's that are not really
made like real vw/bosch 009s,, (my guess)
in fact, some china parts change every month... in any direction.
that is their way. non ISO9001 certs.
what rotor
bosch
04038 (wrong)
04033 (fits real vw/bosch 0231 178 009)
04006 wrong.
04033 wrong
04010 wrong..
what rotor you got?
not sure what burning thru is (yes, means just i though it was bad)
but if it was, or is.
bill fishers books show , this.
they found that a bad diaphragm in the dizzy vac, advance. allowed
engine fumes to enter the dizzy and mess it up big time.
so this is a known deal , that. for the record.
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in Samba classifieds....1968 T1. |
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