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kirk knighton
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: Alternative Master Cylinders? |
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I've bought several NOS master cylinders over the years and I've installed two of them recently only to discover they didn't work. The brake pedal would go all the way to the floor... there's no guarantee that these NOS cylinders are still "like-new", I guess.
I remember reading here or on STF that there is an alternative cylinder that can be adapted to the 411/412. Does anybody know about this? Ray? |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Did you change new seals? I'm sure the old seals are rock hard after all these years. Did you check if there was any pitting inside the sylinder? I've rescued several mastercylinders only with light honing and polishing. Ofcourse this only works if there is only slight surface rust and no severe pitting.
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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bb412
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 300
Location: canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:50 am Post subject: alternative master |
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| hi,, have you look ,,, pastparts.com,, she is an ,,uk,,enterprise and they redone all the hydrolique parts for the 412,, with the modern oil seal,, and her price is very acceptable,,i have a ,,mc,,and a cluth slave from pastparts and they work fine,,and ,,cardone,,redone the ,,mc,, but i thing her quality is diferent,, |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Albert for reminding! I had totally forgotten the Pastparts. It seems to be a really interesting option.
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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bb412
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 300
Location: canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:02 am Post subject: alternative master |
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| yes for an average of 50.$ each we save a lot of problem,,in my last command at,, past-parts,, the guy said me they got in stock 75 cluth slave44.5 mm, for the 412 and for the 411 small model too,,her service for the net sale is excellent,, |
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vwrabbitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2006
Posts: 112
Location: Gilbert, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
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A buddy of mine had the same problem with the NOS master he had bought for his 412, but on his only the rear circuit worked. He replaced the seals and now it works better than ever.
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You either love the utilitarian approach the VW engineers had in the earlier days, or you don't. If you don't. . . buy a Honda. |
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HansMartin
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 34
Location: Bergen, Norway
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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the link mentioned above should read :
http://www.pastparts.co.uk/
(thanks for the heads up on it, was sorely needed  ) |
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bb412
Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004
Posts: 300
Location: canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:49 am Post subject: alternative master |
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| thanks ,MARTIN, if you want a cluth slave send an email and ask for ,TONY,,the cluth slave is not show on the net,,and TONY,was her service men,,2 years ago,, |
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Bruehl
Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2013
Posts: 9
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I got a remanufactured brake master cylinder from o'reillys auto parts and it works great, no leaks! |
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reluctantartist
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1927
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I got a remanufactured brake master cylinder from o'reillys auto parts and it works great, no leaks! |
Was this for a 411/412? The last time I looked everywhere, everyone is out of stock. The only place that will do anything is Rock Auto and that is if you send your old one in for a rebuild.
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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If there are no rust pits or scoring you can take the seals and flap valves ONLY...not tghe pistons...from any type 3 dual circuit rebuild kit that is the same make...ATE or FAG and lap the cylinder with 800 grit or better. Do not hone it. Honing is only for removing rust ...light rust....anf for over sizing. You do not want to leave hone marks. The seal are not piston rings. This will work quite well.
There is another option that ismore involed. I will post a pictorial as I start doing mine in summer. It uses a bus master cylinder on the mounting point/stamping area for the powee brake unit in the trunk but you need t8o make tghe fulcrum and linkage like the power unit used. Ray |
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Bruehl
Samba Member
Joined: February 27, 2013
Posts: 9
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| for 73 412 wagon it is a cardone remanufactured part no #11-1648 |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Cardone generally does good work.
The things I have no knowledge of ...that was part and parcel for rebuilders many years ago....was the use of kits with oversized pistons and seals. I dont know if Cardone and the others do things like that. If not, then they ...like us...are at the mercy of whether a core is rebuildable or not. I have in he past found rebuilds that when you pull the piston out....they have he same pits that we cant live with. You end up with a very short cylinder life.
If however they are a selective rebuilder...or have access to oversize parts....its not an issue. Ray |
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titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Alternative Master Cylinders? |
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| Question: What is the difference between a 1973 Type 3 MC, and a Type 4 MC other than the mounting connections? Bob |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Alternative Master Cylinders? |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Question: What is the difference between a 1973 Type 3 MC, and a Type 4 MC other than the mounting connections? Bob |
Everything but the bore diameter is different.
I want to be sure everyone gets this. Unless you are checking with a micrometer or caliper....you might miss the most dangerous differences.....and its what scares the hell out of me watching people swapping in master cylinders in threads from other cars.......like just a week ago there is a thread in the type 3 forum about swapping MC's from a dual circuit to a single circuit system.
Unless most of what the system is acted on is changed (calipers and wheel cylinders ro start with)......you can have dangerous brake bias imbalances. The only stable part of that swap was that the front to rear weight, balance point and inertia are the same.
Back to whats different etween type 3 and 4......the pistons...if you look and measure carefully .....have the positions of the aluminum discs or fins that seperate and locate the seals.....in different places.
What this causes is:
1. The fluid volume that is contained between each seal pair....is slightly different. This makes a difference in how fast the fluid pressure builds up in each circuit as you press the pedal.
2. And this is critical if you try to swap pistons from a type 3 to a type 4 MC.....because the seals are in different places.....the seals have a habit of blocking the fluid inlet ports in the type 4 MC casting when the pistons are at rest....meaning your foot is off the brake. This alternately causes the circuit to starve for fluid.....not enough braking pressure.....and not releasing fluid pressure because it cannot drain back to the reservoir.....so brakes lock.
3. The spring pressures each circuit are slightly different. This makes a change in the bias of front to rear.....in how fast or with what timing the rear brakes start to kick in. It can be serious.
4. The tail of each piston. ....the part that extends into the spring on the piston and that the spring mount screw screws into......are a diffeent length. So this causes the pistons to stop at a different point....meaning they build up a different maximum pressure.
Now.....all of that being said....is mainly a warning to not swap parts from one MC to another except for seals and flap valves.
But......the type 3 car versus type 4 car......has a similar size....but smaller.....a similar weight....but is a little lighter.....and a similar fromt ro rear balance point....but still a little different.....and a similar dive rate for the front end due to differences in suspension.....but still is similar......
And the front and rear brake hardware is largely identical......so......its possible that if you can swap the entire type 3 cylinder into a type 4......it could work quite well. Also by adding in an aftermarket rear brake pressure regulator.....it could work even better.
I go through all of this....because right now.....my 412 still has the modification I made on it in 2002 when I parked it. That is......that I welded a clamp bracket on the pedal cluster. ...and was able to take various master cylinders and cut/grind off one mounting ear. ....and mount them in the car.
It was while doing this and working through the braking adjustments that I figured out just how much difference these subtle internal changes made to braking. I tried late super beetle cylinders, middle years rabbit cylinders and type 3 cylinders.
The type 3 was closest....but had too much delay for the rear brake kick in. I think the type 3 could be used.....but will require a rear brake bias adjuster.....which is only about $40.
Or....you may be able to fix some of it or all of it by swapping in the internal springs from the type 4 cylinder into the type 3 cylinder.
Also......I made the decision that if I am going to start adjusting and tinkering to set rear brake pressures and bias.....I may as well upgrade all the way. I will be installing whichever master cylinder I use......in the trunk. If you look in the trunk you will see the indention stamped in the body where the hole goes to install the power brake master cylinder.
I will also have to fabricate the bracket, rod and adjustable pivot that relays the pedal motion to the master cylinder in the trunk. I will probably first try a type 3 cylinder. I have though about using the 21mm bus cylinder. It will require both brake bias and brake pressure adjusters for the rear circuit if I use the bus cylinder. Ray |
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kgarchivinusa
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2007
Posts: 172
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Alternative Master Cylinders? |
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Show the repair kit 03.0370-4219.2 for Mastercylinder 03.2119-3611.3
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1958 Ghia Coupe aerosilver/graywhite
1966 Ghia Coupe lotoswhite/black pigalle
1968 sunroof bug savannah beige
1968 VW 411 4-door royal red
1968 VW 411 L 4-door cobaltblue
1988 Porsche 924S Targa alpinweiss
(O = i = O) Karmann Ghia rassig und charmant [hot-blooded and charming] [O o\ i /o O] |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Alternative Master Cylinders? |
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Very nice! A kit for ATE cylinder!
Ray |
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