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Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible?
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bretly
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:29 am    Post subject: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

I'm looking to restore my van and it doesn't have to be perfect, but I want to know if it's possible to do in steps? I have a POR-15 kit on the way, my main goal here is to take care of the rust first and attempt the body work and either paint it myself or get it painted once I have it prepped. I wanted to start with the roof as there is some surface rust showing and a rust spot/hole under the front window where I'll need to weld in some metal.

So can I sand the roof and cover it with primer and sealer and leave that as is while I work on other parts of the van?

I wasn't sure if I could seal the top with the POR-15 then primer over that, or if I really just need to prime it, seal it and put on some rustoleum or something until I'm ready to do the entire thing?

I see a lot of old cars that appear to be mid restore process driving around and I do drive mine. I have a garage to keep it in but not work on it in. I just don't want to have to redo the entire thing again if I get it wet. Any advice here is greatly appreciated as I'm a newbie at this stuff.
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theKbStockpiler
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

Don't bother wasting the POR on the roof because the roof is only prone to rusting if the paint fails from sun exposure. Use it where it gets exposed to being sprayed with water or otherwise on the lower part of the vehicle.
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bretly
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

Can I just then sand out the rust where it is needed and primer it and seal it with something until I am ready to get the thing painted? The roof paint has already failed do to sun exposure, not entirely but there are some surface spots. I'm just looking to stop it and treat it and complete all the body work, then take it in and get it painted once I am done.
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theKbStockpiler
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

I have been trying to get the most effectiveness from phosphoric and muriatic acid ,both of which are available at home centers. These acids only attack living tissue Laughing and rust for the most part.

Wear goggles ,gloves , don't breath the vapors ,don't be underneath it and don't flick it off of a brush. Don't put so much on that the rust does not absorb it and it runs off. You can also mix it with Jello to make it thicker.

For the first try I mix muriatic acid with about 30-40 percent phosphoric. Don't let it dry out or it will flash rust very bad. When you are done with a rust removing session ,rinse the area with water and wash off with a strong mixture of powdered laundry detergent. Then possibly brush on a layer of straight phosphoric acid.

After this ratio gets the the rust down to bare metal in some spots ,reverse the ratio until the remaining rust is removed or turned to black because it has been converted to iron oxide. If the iron oxide is really thin you can paint over it or if not mechanically remove it or reverse the ratio again and do more applications.
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Last edited by theKbStockpiler on Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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c21darrel
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

Quote:
You can also mix it with Jello to make it thicker.


I learn something new all the time! thanks.

...but what flavor is best? Wink
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theKbStockpiler
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

I prefer citrus. Very Happy
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Phat73
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

POR15....POR 15 is one of the most misunderstood, over hyped and misused products in the restoration world.

POR15 adheres to scuffed rusted surfaces, it is not intended for use on new metal or metal which has be cleaned to white by abrasive techniques. There are reagents in POR15 that react with "rust" to make it cure properly and adhere the way it was designed. In fact POR will not permanently stick to clean metal...it will come off eventually.

Further if you are going to top coat over POR15 there is a specific procedure for surface prep. Paints will not adhere to POR 15, you have to use a POR product interface. If you don't your paint job will fail.

POR15 should not be used straight out of the can..as per instructions. It should be reduced with POR15 specific thinner. The difference in application, finish and longevity is like night and day.

So there's the 411 on POR15. All this information is based on personal experience and extensive research.
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Last edited by Phat73 on Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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viiking
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

theKbStockpiler wrote:
I have been trying to get the most effectiveness from phosphoric and muriatic acid ,both of which are available at home centers. These acids only attack living tissue Laughing and rust for the most part.

Wear goggles ,gloves , don't breath the vapors ,don't be underneath it and don't flick it off of a brush. Don't put so much on that the rust does not absorb it and it runs off. You can also mix it with Jello to make it thicker.

For the first try I mix muriatic acid with about 30-40 percent phosphoric. Don't let it dry out or it will flash rust very bad. When you are done with a rust removing session ,rinse the area with water and wash off with a strong mixture of powdered laundry detergent. Then possibly brush on a layer of straight phosphoric acid.

After this ratio gets the the rust down to bare metal in some spots ,reverse the ratio until the remaining rust is removed or turned to black because it has been converted to iron oxide. If the iron oxide is really thin you can paint over it or if not mechanically remove it or reverse the ratio again and do more applications.


Seems to be totally unnecessary to use both acids together. All acids, muriatic (HCl-hydrochloric), phosphoric, citric acid and even fermenting molasses (probably changing into vinegar/acetic acid) will do the job. The differences are only the speed of the iron oxidation reaction (muriatic being the fastest), the relative safety, but also the possible side reactions.

Muriatic will yield chlorides (possibly NaCl - salt, especially if neutralising with sodium rich materials, like laundry detergents or caustic soda/lye), phosphoric will yield phosphates (which you want particularly zinc phosphate) and citric, citrates etc.

For greatest efficiency for people who don't have the chemical understanding or pH measuring equipment etc, use phosphoric acid and deal with flash rusting promptly.

For a good dissertation on this, search for the many excellent posts on this subject by a fellow poster, Ray Greenwood.

Sure muriatic will work, but you need to know what you are doing.
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theKbStockpiler
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

Ray got me primed on the use of acid but I don't get exactly the same results in practice as He describes.

RustOleums Rust Stripper has both muriatic and phosphoric acids in them for a reason I imagine.

It seems that if when they are mixed that the solution remains active so you can brush it on and still have it working for a while where as with muriatic alone it's done in a short time. Phosphoric acid won't touch hard scale by it's self.
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A_BugLife
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

I would break it down into chunks of work. From what it sounds like you will be doing some repairs on the weekends and driving it during the week. If I had to do it that way this is what I would do.

1. Cut and weld one repair. If you run out of time after welding spray it with a good coat of weld through primer. Then finish the grinding and weld clean up the next weekend.

2. Find the non pitted surface rust and clean it off with wire wheel/silicon carbide wheel. Then paint with a good etching primer on the bare metal. Then a good coat of filler primer. (Note: make sure there is absolutely no rust left before painting. Have some rust converter product on hand in case you can't get all the rust off. See #3 below.)

3. Find the pitted surface rust areas. These are areas that the metal has surface rust that can't be ground or wire wheeled clean. Do your best in cleaning everything off, just like you did the light surface rust. Then use a rust product like others have mentioned here to either eat out the remainder or convert it from iron oxide into ferric... what ever. What your looking for is red rust turning into to brown/black pits. Then you can coat with an etching primer and follow up with a good coat of filler primer. If you don't convert the rust it will keep rusting right under any paint you put on it.

Do one spot at a time and make sure you can get to a point in your little projects that you can coat any bare metal before you drive it for the week.

Good luck.
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orwell84
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Restore body/paint job in steps, is it possible? Reply with quote

I am also doing body work piece by piece. I usually sandblast pitted areas on the exterior until they are clean metal and use epoxy primer over them. I also use epoxy primer over large repaired areas where I have used body filler as body filler will absorb moisture through rattle can or non catalyzed primer. Epoxy primer can be hard to spray. I have used it with a foam roller in wheel wells and also on my cab floor after removing the rust from the pitted metal with naval jelly. It is the low quality shrooms of the acid word compared to the other kinds mentioned and takes many applications and wire brushing. I was surprised with how well the cab floor came out rolling on epoxy primer and spraying with a high build high quality rattle can primer followed by top coat. I would consider rolling on epoxy primer as a first coat to protect exterior work where you have pitted areas or used body filler. It is a bitch to sand but I have found with wet sanding, subsequent sprayed coats fill the orange peel easily. I would avoid rolling it on whole panels, only repaired areas. If I have bare metal areas where I have wleded, I use cold galv or weld through primer. It wipes of easily with acetone. It is not very durable, but I've never had it rust.

BTW, I don't like POR-15 at all. It does end up peeling off of clean metal in sheets, but sticks to skin for ages. It's a very touchy specific process to get it to work and there are better products that are easier to use.
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