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a rattle I can't figure out.
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flyboat
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: a rattle I can't figure out. Reply with quote

I have had a valve train type noise for some time. I have torn the heads down. All looked good. Reinstalled with new rockers and push rods (chromoly). Rattle still exists. So today I decided to tear the engine completely down. I expected to find a bad lifter bore or maybe even a bad bearing. Nope, all looked like a new build.

I am left thinking that maybe I have a piston slap issue. The pistons and cylinders look good. The clearance is a bit more than I like. But other than that, I can't find anything that would create this rattle/knock. What are your thoughts.
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10 to 1 cr
1.4 ratio rockers
welded and ported heads
Erson cam .327 lift, 233 duration, 106 lobe centers.
Weber twin 44 idf
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vwracerdave
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engines with dual valve springs and chromoly P/R are noisier then single springs with aluminum P/R. Steel transmits noise while aluminum dampens noise. You need to carefully check the side clearances of your rockers.
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flyboat
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have set the side clearance of the rockers to .003-.004"
I am aware of the extra noise from the set up. My concern stems from the fact that the noise seems to be coming from the left side of the engine no matter how I adjust the valve lash, which is set to "O". This makes me think there is something wrong in the set up on the left. But it all looks good.
Does piston slap sound like valve train noise? Would there be any visible evidence?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some cams make more rattle than others, if all the other parts look normal but you still have a lot of lash noise then suspect the cam!

The ends of the pushrods take time to wear into the lifters and rockers, until they do wear in there will be more noise. Changing them around may delay the process
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flyboat
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Gotcha
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First switch the rocker arm assemblies from one side to the other and see if the noise moves to the other side, and then move the push rods to see...understand? if you end up with the noise still on one side you know what to check... one on my tricks is to use an old push rod with no tips and put one end up after the metal such as cylinders and head when jacked up and running and listen...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

check for the valve guides loose. Took me a while to find it, but that was my crazy tapping noise. Valve guide literally sliding back and forth and hitting the retainer. madness.
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flyboat
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tore down the engine and everything looked really good. I was expecting to find a bad lifter bore. But nope. The valve guides are all tight. The guides do have a small amount of wear. Not what I would think is enough to create the tapping noise.

I suppose this type of valve train is just noisier than I thought. I am going to replace the guides and valves for larger ones and put it back together. Hopefully, that will fix the noise. If not, my next step is to get the aluminum tapered push rods from ACN
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a motor that made a strange buzz that was a broken rocker stand, it was broke in half. It would go up in pitch when you rev-ed it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flyboat wrote:
Tore down the engine and everything looked really good. I was expecting to find a bad lifter bore. But nope. The valve guides are all tight. The guides do have a small amount of wear. Not what I would think is enough to create the tapping noise.

I suppose this type of valve train is just noisier than I thought. I am going to replace the guides and valves for larger ones and put it back together. Hopefully, that will fix the noise. If not, my next step is to get the aluminum tapered push rods from ACN


Do you have a straight cut gears? My cb straight cut gears sounds like clak clak...
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flyboat
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no straight cut gears.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you might try adding the extra oil gally to the lifter gally, and sloting the lifter bores inward about 3/8" and outward about1/4" from each oil gally hole in each lifter bore.my chromoly push rods & 1.33 rocker assy is extreamly quiet.the only one quieter I have heard has a hydro cam in it.
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flyboat
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How did you get in there to slot it, A small file?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

a die grinder with an 1/8" carbide ballend bit.(dremol will do just fine too) about .040" deep.060-.080" wide.
the grove in the vw lifter isant always lined up with the gally so it dosent always have oil pressure to the pushrods with supply oil to the rockers. and adding the extra gally just ensures there is enough volume, you can also deepen&widen the slots in the cam bearing journol in the case halvs to increase the oil flow.a high volume pump should also be used(30mm).
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flyboat
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thanks. I have the 30 mm pump. I will consider this mod. I am also considering the Hoover mods.
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the2ndcashboy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is one of the Hoover mods. Just a little bass-ackwards Laughing . Most people slot the lifters, not the case, on the principle that its better to modify the cheaper part.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the cheeper part that will ne redooing when they need changed, or a burr left on 1 and it eats up the lifter bore, or you have a cam that dosent put the grove in the lifter in line with the gally at all times. modify the cheeper part? what a concept.so we should all throw away the webbers and just hog out the solex.& keep filing points instead of using electronics.and weld up junk oe heads instead of using a better casting.and weld up valves so there biger instead of buying good stainless valves.and tighten the loose nut behind the wheel before it causes an axadent.possiably use antiaxodents!!!! use more tire patches on bald tires instead of instaling new ones.I wonder why I never thought of that?hmm how about just welding some counter weights to the pully instead of the crankshaft?they could even be canted so it blows.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
the cheeper part that will ne redooing when they need changed, or a burr left on 1 and it eats up the lifter bore, or you have a cam that dosent put the grove in the lifter in line with the gally at all times. modify the cheeper part? what a concept.so we should all throw away the webbers and just hog out the solex.& keep filing points instead of using electronics.and weld up junk oe heads instead of using a better casting.and weld up valves so there biger instead of buying good stainless valves.and tighten the loose nut behind the wheel before it causes an axadent.possiably use antiaxodents!!!! use more tire patches on bald tires instead of instaling new ones.I wonder why I never thought of that?hmm how about just welding some counter weights to the pully instead of the crankshaft?they could even be canted so it blows.


Lol dude, don't get your panties in a wad. I didn't say grooving the bores was wrong, just that most people do the lifters instead. I don't always mod the cheaper part myself. I moved the main bearing oil holes in my aluminum case instead of moving the holes in the bearing. Thats a little different though, since I was fixing something that was wrong, not adding a mod that some future owner might not want.

And btw: anyone who would install a lifter with a burr on it probably isn't capable of grooving the bores properly either....
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Boolean
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fine with modifying the cheapest part. If that part is wrong. Otherwise, I'll modify the part that needs it most - cheap or not.
The issue with consumables having to be modified every time the engine is torn sounds stupid. JMHO
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Groove the side of the bore opposite how the cam rotates.
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