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1971 squareback F.I. Slow to start
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pat griffith
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: 1971 squareback F.I. Slow to start Reply with quote

I would love to get my SB to start faster I have owned this car for 5 years now and it is hard to start .It takes around 15 to 20 seconds to start. Often I stop cranking and on the second try it fires up. When its hot its can even be harder to start. Should I try to increase the fuel pump pressure? I have it tuned up right .Valves adjusted. Timed with a timing light. All grounds checked. Automatic bug starter in it. 12 volt relay installed. It does turn over well . Just hard to light off. Any ideas?
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vlad01
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

most likely you have leaky injectors.

does it start straight away if you leave it over night?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You aren't pumping the pedal are you? That floods an EFI car fast.
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pat griffith
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I don't pump the pedal. I have replaced the orings on the injectors and have used fuel injector cleaner in the gas. Does it pay to have the injectors rebuilt?
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hold about 1/2 gas pedal until it tries to fire. The try again with no gas pedal & it will start/idle.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turn key on and off a couple times
put your fot to the floor
try to start

is it turning over quickly?
or slow?
if its slow then its the ignition/power first
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sharkskinman wrote:
turn key on and off a couple times


Yup, That's all I had to do with any of my fuel injected Type 3s. What you're doing when you do that, is priming the fuel lines with fuel, and building fuel pressure. If you have to do this when the engine is warm, then you might want to inspect your fuel lines for leaks (weeping), or pull the injectors and see IF they're leaking. What IS your fuel pressure?

Also, I see you say that you've checked/set the timing, but did you check the point gap? How do the plugs look? As Tram would say, ignition first, FI 2nd.
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Clatter wrote:
Unfortunately, a height that works well doesn't really look that low in the end...

Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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pat griffith
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ve tried everything you guys suggest. Turning the ignition on and off dosent seem to make much of a difference. Plugs are burning fine. The engine turns over fast. I have a good coil in it and electronic points. I have removed the trigger point and cleanded them as recomended. I will have to recheck my fuel pressure add inspect all of the hoses again. Whats a normal time to fire up,,,5 seconds 10 seconds? the funny thing is often I will stop turning it over after 15 seconds and when I hit it again she starts up.
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Tram
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pat griffith wrote:
I ve tried everything you guys suggest. Turning the ignition on and off dosent seem to make much of a difference. Plugs are burning fine. The engine turns over fast. I have a good coil in it and electronic points. I have removed the trigger point and cleanded them as recomended. I will have to recheck my fuel pressure add inspect all of the hoses again. Whats a normal time to fire up,,,5 seconds 10 seconds? the funny thing is often I will stop turning it over after 15 seconds and when I hit it again she starts up.


Wonder if you have an ignition switch that's worn?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was just clicking around and I noticed this thread "Rough idle at cold start" is linked in the D-Jet PhD Sticky first post. looks like it has a lot of knowledge in it.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=387807
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The P O installed a push to start button as the ignition must have had a problem. I have researched it and found that the 71 ignition switch is a one year only switch. I would like to repair it to original condition someday.
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sharkskinman
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i rebuild ignitions...
also is it a 4 Spd or an automatic?
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71' Square"rod".. Auto..11" front suspension extension

Me of Course wrote:
Extremity is relative to how far your willing to jump


Ward Cleaver wrote:
You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards


PS3 Black Ops "NKOGNEATO"
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to prime my fuel pump 5-10-15 times to get mine started. I finally took Adriel's advice to use the gas pedal to get it started faster/easier.
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66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold

'68 Karmann Ghia roller or parts?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
I used to prime my fuel pump 5-10-15 times to get mine started. I finally took Adriel's advice to use the gas pedal to get it started faster/easier.


That's why Jim Adney created his "fuel pump prime kit", so you don't have to do that sort of thing. What he found, was that the fuel system would loose pressure overnight (from an air bubble caused by a hot engine boiling the fuel off after shutdown (it created some sort of vacuum)), which took the pump a few moments (longer than the 2 seconds the relays stayed energized) to "re-prime" the system. His kit over rides the relays, and primes the fuel ring, allowing for a quicker start. The relays stay in place, and do their job though. Most times this is a morning first fire up for the day situation, that it's needed. However, IF you find that you need to keep doing it, then you've got a leak somewhere (a hose, hose end, or injector).

I've never had to step on the gas pedal to start a FI t-3, unless it was really hot, or I had a leaking injector. You really shouldn't need to step on the gas either. I know my domestics can be a PIA to start sometimes too, taking up to 20 or 30 seconds to fire up. Wink And that's without touching the throttle pedal. On my wife's van, I'll attempt to start it, back off, then hit the key again shortly afterward, then it fires right up. It's like it needs to build some pressure in the fuel ring. Our cars are similar in that respect, as they need 28 PSI to start and run.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Clatter wrote:
Unfortunately, a height that works well doesn't really look that low in the end...

Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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sharkskinman
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is a sticker on some cars that Tell you to hold your foot to the floor when you start it


our F.I. system should hold about 15lbs overnight
the idea of the first relay is to prime the pump up to Operating Pressure
the first shot should take the 15lbs up to mid 20s

im dealing with that a bit myself
Im going to get 2 regulators
One Right Outside the pump
and one where the stock one is

Fuel Pressure/Power(amp/V) Stability is KEY with F.I. systems
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71' Square"rod".. Auto..11" front suspension extension

Me of Course wrote:
Extremity is relative to how far your willing to jump


Ward Cleaver wrote:
You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards


PS3 Black Ops "NKOGNEATO"
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sharkskinman wrote:
there is a sticker on some cars that Tell you to hold your foot to the floor when you start it


And there is a booklet that came with every car:
Wink

Not to contradict VW, but it does help to hit the key a couple of times to the run (not start) position, turn off, and THEN follow their instructions. Pumps and regulators seem to be slow to get to pressure without a little help.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pat griffith wrote:
The P O installed a push to start button as the ignition must have had a problem. I have researched it and found that the 71 ignition switch is a one year only switch. I would like to repair it to original condition someday.


actually 70-71 switch, both years are the same. look on the classifieds, you'll find one. Bert might have one. I bought a spare from him last time.
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vlad01
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
I used to prime my fuel pump 5-10-15 times to get mine started. I finally took Adriel's advice to use the gas pedal to get it started faster/easier.


never ever had that problem with EFI on a fasty I had years ago, it started with only a jab of the ignition. seem to start in one crank revolution every time.

if you have to prime the pump that many times, there is either leaking injectors, leaking lines somewhere. faulty fuel reg or what seems to be common on those door stop like OG pumps is the check valve has failed.

EFI system should hold pressure even days after its last use.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vlad01 wrote:
Mike Fisher wrote:
I used to prime my fuel pump 5-10-15 times to get mine started. I finally took Adriel's advice to use the gas pedal to get it started faster/easier.


never ever had that problem with EFI on a fasty I had years ago, it started with only a jab of the ignition. seem to start in one crank revolution every time.

if you have to prime the pump that many times, there is either leaking injectors, leaking lines somewhere. faulty fuel reg or what seems to be common on those door stop like OG pumps is the check valve has failed.

EFI system should hold pressure even days after its last use.



This thread is why i have beenranting...for YEARS...about Three specific items:

1. get a new harness....get a new harness...get a new harness

2. your engine is nowhere near the condition it was when your MPS was adjusted to match...and factory adjustment was fairly general....not really exact. ADJUST YOUR MPS!!!

3.get your fuel pressure stabilized!
Factory fuel pressure stability was just...adequate. As the system ages, the first thing to go...especially on engines that have sat around for a while...is the fuel pressure regulator. Next is the check valve in the pump for the same reason....moisture in the fuel rusts the check valve ball and seat and the the metering plate seat in teh regulator...and does the same number on the roller cells in the pump. That lowers the pump efficiency. The reg and check valve causes leak down and high by-pass.

If you have to blip the key several times to get pressure stabil enough to start....you have a weak reg, old pump, or weak check valve...and generally all three. Fix it!...its not that hard or expensive.

Think about this.....the system is designed to start well after system bleed down to its min imum. Its minimum should be in the 13-18 psi range. That is not really injection pressure...but with the 3 second run time of teh pump start up cycle..that will.....on a decent system...bring the pressure up to about 23-25 psi....just fine. Bear in imnd that this is a fixed pressure system and the ECU ASSUMES....that the pressure is corect....and has no sensors to know any better.

The reason the text notes to leave the throttle fully open...is that some of the TVS's if not most...have a ground connection at the end of the full stroke of the throttle that signals WOT...so the ECU notes higher enrichment.

A better method (if you have stable fuel pressure after your 3 second fuel pump cycle) is to leave the throttle closed....turn the key...depress the pedal halfway while key is on and immediately engage the starter.

Why?

Because if you have fuel pressure....and you stroke the throttle with the key on...the TVS will inject at least 6-8 small shots of fuel into the manifolds. if you immediately engage the starter that partially atomized fuel gets immediately sucked in and combusted.

Once I learned that the fuel mixture on MOST D-jet systems can be greatly improved by careful tuning....and a wiring system that is not sending high or low resistance information to the ECU....and stabil fuel pressure...........as Vlad mentioned.....D-jet SHOULD start ON THE FIRST REVOLUTION...regardless of outside temperature. Mine has alwasy fired on the first REV....no shit....evn down to about 10 below zero.

Of course this is also based on general engine condition. If your compression is low and the engine has poor efficiency....its going to be harder. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:57 pm    Post subject: update Reply with quote

Thanks for all the advice. I am almost there but not perfect yet. Here is what I have done so far. Replaced the old harness with one built by Joe (Great work!) Rebuilt generator and replaced voltage regulator. Starter was getting weak so I replaced it. Adjusted the fuel pressure . Holds at 30 lbs. Fresh tune up and replaced all fuel lines. Had the fuel injectors cleaned and flow tested. I believe that the check valve in the fuel pump is not working as I lose system pressure When the engine is shut off. The car now starts as it should. Runs great while going down the road and has a smooth idle. It still is a bit slow to start once it has sat for 20 minutes or so. I have to blip the ignition switch 4 to 5 times to get it to light off but much muct better than before. Will be looking in to replacing the pump in the future. I am at the point where I think that adjusting the map might make thing better but I am reluctent to mess with it. I just took a look at my plugs and they are all burning fine. If anything they might be running a bit lean. It would be great if there was somebody in the los Angles area with some expertise in map tuning as I would gladly seek there help.
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