| Author |
Message |
sooptime
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 101
|
 Posted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:05 pm Post subject: Brake lights not functioning. |
 |
|
Hi and seasons greetings.
I have been rebuilding slash making a 1970 fasty road-worthy. It was a pick n pull rescue. My other threads describe the issues that have come up and the help I have had with it.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=573301
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=576667
At this point, I am down to the short strokes and need to resolve two issues, primarily non-functioning brake lights and secondly, getting the stock wiper fluid system to work.
Regarding the brake lights, they aren't working. I have replaced the three prong switch. I have checked the wiring at the fuse box. Appears proper according to Bentley. All other lights work, including emergency flashers. All bulbs replaced with new. Brake warning light on dash doesn't light up.
What I see in the Bentley is a junction box, labelled "T3". Looks like the horn is wired through there as well. The horn also does not work.
Where exactly can I locate this junction connection? I'd like to check it.
What else might this be?
I will wait to resolve the wiper washer issue. I see some threads in search that are related to washer issues. Thinking for the moment, I may just wire an electric pump/reservoir to get some fluid on the windshield.
Thanks.
Brad |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
Trace your +12v red/black from the fuse box to the trunk. T3 should be a plastic connector in the trunk. If you have 12v there, move to the brake light switches, then if you have 12v coming out of the switch when it's pressed, move to the rear of the car and look for 12v at the bulbs.
It's a pretty simple circuit, usually turns out to be a bad switch or corroded connections.
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
You might as well put in an aftermarket windshield washer. I don't remember anyone getting their original unit to work consistently?
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| W1K1 wrote: |
Trace your +12v red/black from the fuse box to the trunk. T3 should be a plastic connector in the trunk. If you have 12v there, move to the brake light switches, then if you have 12v coming out of the switch when it's pressed, move to the rear of the car and look for 12v at the bulbs.
It's a pretty simple circuit, usually turns out to be a bad switch or corroded connections. |
Yeah, the T3 connector, is a 3 terminal plastic connector with 3 wires in, and 3 wires out. It should be found under the cardboard fuel tank cover on the left side just below the brake fluid resivoir.
If you unplug the black wire with a red tracer stripe, you should be able to put a temporary jumper wire (from a battery + connection), and see IF you have brake lights at the rear of the car. You might have to try either of the 2 wires, since 1 of them goes to the switches, while the other is out of the switches to the lights themselves (there are 2 wires that are the same colors). The wire to the lights, runs back into the car, and into the main harness.
Have you verified the switches work with an ohm meter? I know they might be new, but you never know. There were some new Meyle switches that were internally wired backwards, is the reason I'm asking. Plus, it'll verify you have brake pressure needed to activate the switches to turn on the lights.
I hope this helps.
The red wire is for the brake warning light, and it only really comes on after you've got a problem (you'll feel it in the brake pedal before the light comes on).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 11:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| You might as well put in an aftermarket windshield washer. |
Yup, I've done that on all of my cars. I use a micro push button switch that fits into 1 of the holes on the lower dash lip to mount the switch. Just make sure you put the electric pump below the fluid tank, or you'll burn up the pump. BTDT before.  By going to an electric pump, you don't have to worry about having a flat spare tire when you really need it. 
I normally run all new hose to the squirter from the pump, so I don't have any places for water to leak into the cabin of the car (it sure beats getting a shower when you don't want one). 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sooptime
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 101
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| W1K1 wrote: |
Trace your +12v red/black from the fuse box to the trunk. T3 should be a plastic connector in the trunk. If you have 12v there, move to the brake light switches, then if you have 12v coming out of the switch when it's pressed, move to the rear of the car and look for 12v at the bulbs.
It's a pretty simple circuit, usually turns out to be a bad switch or corroded connections. |
Thanks for the replies guys.
Figured something was up at the junction, since there is power to the bulbs (emergency flashers work). I will take these steps tomorrow. The junction is located just below the gas heater. Will remove the ducting and shield and do the tests.
I replaced the 3 prong switch which I understood is the brake light switch. Didn't replace the other (warning switch?). The switch came in a "EuroMax" box.
Given that mine is a 70, the Bentley can be slightly confusing. The wiring diagrams show different fuse wiring for 70, given they changed in Aug 70. However the fuse box diagrams do not separate them mid year. In addition, looks like I have some extra wires, assuming from the gas heater, which was inconsistent from the Bentley diagram. It is the pre-August diagram that works.
So, hopefully the fault is in the junction and the horn issue is due to it as well. According to Bentley, the horn feeds through that junction.
Regarding the washer system, I did find the threads and the debate about keeping the system or not. Given that this is Lynns car, I want it to be hassle-free, so the simplest seems to be the solution you describe Bob. When we picked the car from the wreckers, it had a bunch of parts inside and one was a Chrysler reservoir. Going to test it and if ok, buy new hose to run directly to the jets, and wire a push button as you suggested Bob. Already bought replacement jets.
Again, I appreciate the tips.
Enjoy your holiday. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 2:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sooptime wrote: |
| W1K1 wrote: |
Trace your +12v red/black from the fuse box to the trunk. T3 should be a plastic connector in the trunk. If you have 12v there, move to the brake light switches, then if you have 12v coming out of the switch when it's pressed, move to the rear of the car and look for 12v at the bulbs.
It's a pretty simple circuit, usually turns out to be a bad switch or corroded connections. |
Thanks for the replies guys.
Figured something was up at the junction, since there is power to the bulbs (emergency flashers work). I will take these steps tomorrow. The junction is located just below the gas heater. Will remove the ducting and shield and do the tests.
I replaced the 3 prong switch which I understood is the brake light switch. Didn't replace the other (warning switch?). The switch came in a "EuroMax" box.
Given that mine is a 70, the Bentley can be slightly confusing. The wiring diagrams show different fuse wiring for 70, given they changed in Aug 70. However the fuse box diagrams do not separate them mid year. In addition, looks like I have some extra wires, assuming from the gas heater, which was inconsistent from the Bentley diagram. It is the pre-August diagram that works.
So, hopefully the fault is in the junction and the horn issue is due to it as well. According to Bentley, the horn feeds through that junction.
Regarding the washer system, I did find the threads and the debate about keeping the system or not. Given that this is Lynns car, I want it to be hassle-free, so the simplest seems to be the solution you describe Bob. When we picked the car from the wreckers, it had a bunch of parts inside and one was a Chrysler reservoir. Going to test it and if ok, buy new hose to run directly to the jets, and wire a push button as you suggested Bob. Already bought replacement jets.
Again, I appreciate the tips.
Enjoy your holiday. |
Model year starts on 1. August- August 1970 is 1971. Maybe that will help clarify things a little.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sooptime
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 101
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tram wrote: |
| Model year starts on 1. August- August 1970 is 1971. Maybe that will help clarify things a little. |
Yup, it does. Thx Tram. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sooptime
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 101
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Just thought I would post new pics just in case you've seen the others and we all like new pics. Besides, it's been a finicky project from me saying to Lynn at the Kelowna Pick n Pull "Sure, Lynn, I can rebuild her!" last summer.
Following these current are shots of how we found it, lacking engine and somewhat picked.
had new rubber mounted, Pirelli P4s. Btw, where it sits is my "shop". It's where I do all the work.
The 1973 engine had headers. To adapt the 73 engine to the 70 harness. Parts obtained from Tram.
Multiple new interior parts, no need to list. Vinyl seats were already in awesome condition. No rips or splits.
The seat cover in back will also be covering the fronts. Lynns car, Lynns retro tastes for it. Leopard pattern shaggy fabric.
Pick n Pull
Engine when picked up.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sooptime wrote: |
Figured something was up at the junction, since there is power to the bulbs (emergency flashers work). |
Just so you know, the emergency flashers are wired in with the turn signals, not the brake lights. The brake lights are a seperate circuit, as are the running lights and turn signals. On 70 and later cars, the brake light bulb is part of the running light bulb (an 1157 bulb, which is a dual element bulb), and is located in the middle of the tail light. The brighter side of that bulb is for the brake lights.
This is why I suggested a "jumper wire" to the T3 connection in the frunk. You can bring power over to it, clip it on 1 wire, go to the back of the car (or have a helper stand there), and see IF they light up. If they don't, try the other black wire with the red tracer stripe. If they don't light up on either wire, then the problem is with the bulb, or the connection at the tail light housing. You'll have to remove both the lense and the housing, and look at the back side and clean the connections.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sooptime
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 101
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| sooptime wrote: |
Figured something was up at the junction, since there is power to the bulbs (emergency flashers work). |
Just so you know, the emergency flashers are wired in with the turn signals, not the brake lights. The brake lights are a seperate circuit, as are the running lights and turn signals. On 70 and later cars, the brake light bulb is part of the running light bulb (an 1157 bulb, which is a dual element bulb), and is located in the middle of the tail light. The brighter side of that bulb is for the brake lights.
This is why I suggested a "jumper wire" to the T3 connection in the frunk. You can bring power over to it, clip it on 1 wire, go to the back of the car (or have a helper stand there), and see IF they light up. If they don't, try the other black wire with the red tracer stripe. If they don't light up on either wire, then the problem is with the bulb, or the connection at the tail light housing. You'll have to remove both the lense and the housing, and look at the back side and clean the connections. |
Thanks Bob. Makes sense. Something didn't seem right to me that the upper section of the lens flashed when the mid was supposed to with me thinking it was "brake lights". I am going to check the bulb connection. Could be it, given it seems like the car may have sat for some years and become corroded. Lots of lights were not functioning, so I just bought all new and replaced them with what Bentley listed. Now that you mention it, the sockets didn't appear healthy.
Btw, your earlier suggestion of getting the Bentley was as good advice as any. It's essential. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sooptime wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| sooptime wrote: |
Figured something was up at the junction, since there is power to the bulbs (emergency flashers work). |
Just so you know, the emergency flashers are wired in with the turn signals, not the brake lights. The brake lights are a seperate circuit, as are the running lights and turn signals. On 70 and later cars, the brake light bulb is part of the running light bulb (an 1157 bulb, which is a dual element bulb), and is located in the middle of the tail light. The brighter side of that bulb is for the brake lights.
This is why I suggested a "jumper wire" to the T3 connection in the frunk. You can bring power over to it, clip it on 1 wire, go to the back of the car (or have a helper stand there), and see IF they light up. If they don't, try the other black wire with the red tracer stripe. If they don't light up on either wire, then the problem is with the bulb, or the connection at the tail light housing. You'll have to remove both the lense and the housing, and look at the back side and clean the connections. |
Thanks Bob. Makes sense. Something didn't seem right to me that the upper section of the lens flashed when the mid was supposed to with me thinking it was "brake lights". I am going to check the bulb connection. Could be it, given it seems like the car may have sat for some years and become corroded. Lots of lights were not functioning, so I just bought all new and replaced them with what Bentley listed. Now that you mention it, the sockets didn't appear healthy.
Btw, your earlier suggestion of getting the Bentley was as good advice as any. It's essential. |
Your welcome. And do let us know what you find. Someone else might be doing a search, and would like to know the end result.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sooptime
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 101
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well kids, I tested all the connections for 12V, popped tail lights n housings and checked for bad connections, replaced a housing that was cracked, cleaned up the innerds of the lenses and housing, then moved under the car to the master cylinder. Popped the brake switch connection and checked for breaks. None. Popped the warning light switch wiring and looked like hell. So what I did was made a jumper wire to bridge the warning light wiring and plugged brake light switch back in.
The result is that I now have brake lights. The warning light switch is kaput. Until I get a new warning light switch delivered, I will leave the jumper wire in there.
[edit: W1K1 educated me that it is not a warning switch, but the second stop light switch]
My usual supplier CIP1 does not stock the switch. Any other source handy?
While under there I found that I have also developed a leak between the brake fluid reservoir and the master, located up where it passes through the body. More new tubing.
Now onto the wiper fluid issue. My Chrysler reservoir motor doesn't run. Have to source another unit. The Chrysler reservoir is slightly long to fit the space anyway.
Thanks again guys. Hope this helps someone else down the road.
Last edited by sooptime on Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sooptime wrote: |
Well kids, I tested all the connections for 12V, popped tail lights n housings and checked for bad connections, replaced a housing that was cracked, cleaned up the innerds of the lenses and housing, then moved under the car to the master cylinder. Popped the brake switch connection and checked for breaks. None. Popped the warning light switch wiring and looked like hell. So what I did was made a jumper wire to bridge the warning light wiring and plugged brake light switch back in.
The result is that I now have brake lights. The warning light switch is kaput. Until I get a new warning light switch delivered, I will leave the jumper wire in there.
My usual supplier CIP1 does not stock the switch. Any other source handy?
While under there I found that I have also developed a leak between the brake fluid reservoir and the master, located up where it passes through the body. More new tubing.
Now onto the wiper fluid issue. My Chrysler reservoir motor doesn't run. Have to source another unit. The Chrysler reservoir is slightly long to fit the space anyway.
Thanks again guys. Hope this helps someone else down the road.
|
I wouldn't really worry too much about the warning light switch, as I said before, you'll feel it in the brake pedal long before that light will come on. I believe it might be a used "only" type of part as well, but I could be wrong. I think that switch was used across all models of air cooled VWs from 68 on. So, that might make finding 1 a little easier.
I'd double check the wiring there, as the warning light shouldn't have any effect on the main brake lights. Yes, power for both does come from the same fuse, but that's it. I'm wondering IF you got some of those internally miss wired switches now. 
As for the leak, I'd get 2 meters of blue hose, and install it from the master cylinder to the res in 1 shot for both lines. This will eliminate any future leaks as well. 
As for the squirter pump, you can use a generic washer pump (sold at FLAPS (your Friendly Local Auto Parts Store)), and use the stock t-3 jug (or a bug jug) to do the job with. That's how I've done a couple of them. On my 65 Notch, I'm using a pump and bracket off a full size GM van.  It works great too. My 64 T-34 has 1 out of a full size chevy pick up truck. Note; I have a bad habit of using whatever is laying around that will do the job. I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sooptime
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 101
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Bob.
I discovered while securing my jumper wire, that one of the wires into the plug was broken off. There are three wires running into the plug. Bentley shows the same, three wires in. It is the black wire. While looking at the plug, it looks corroded in one terminal. The top tabs on the switch look rusty. Bentley shows three prongs for both the warning switch and the stop light switch. The schematics in Bentley show the two switches as identical in configuration. So am thinking they may use the same switch? regardless, I need to make 3 new leads and new rubber boot.
I dropped by a wreckers today and was going to pull a washer reservoir and pump from a golf, but the guy wanted $40 for it. Nope. So, like you suggested, had thought to use the original reservoir and rig a pump to the line.
Thanks for mentioning the blue hose. I was going to pick some up at FLAPS tomorrow. What size is the correct blue hose. Don't want to pull any lines until I am actually doing the replacement if I can.
Oh, yeah, did some research here in thesamba threads and got the horn working today! Loose ground to horn ring. Hahahahaha. A horn is important!
And thanks for all the experts here. Nice comprehensive work. Guys know yur shite. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sooptime
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 101
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| W1K1 wrote: |
They are both the same switch.
Front brake circuit and rear |
Thanks W. Makes entire sense. I'm old and gap sometimes. Guess I jumpered the correct 2 wires. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Donnie strickland
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Glad to hear things are coming along so well! I always like posts like these.
| sooptime wrote: |
| It is the black wire. |
Just for future reference -- and forgive me if you know this already -- any solid black wire is hot all the time the key is on.
_________________
71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sooptime wrote: |
Thanks Bob.
Thanks for mentioning the blue hose. I was going to pick some up at FLAPS tomorrow. What size is the correct blue hose. Don't want to pull any lines until I am actually doing the replacement if I can. |
It's 8mm ID.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sooptime
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2013
Posts: 101
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 2:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Buddy at Lordco had no idea what hose. BUT....CIP1 has 7mm blue hose sold by the meter though. So need to order.
Going to replace the crappy rear brake switch with the one that I pulled from the front. Thinking I replaced the wrong switch maybe. Der.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
