Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Lowering my Type 3 using the outer splines
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Type 3 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Paul da Graca
Samba Member


Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 50
Location: The Netherlands
Paul da Graca is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:42 am    Post subject: Lowering my Type 3 using the outer splines Reply with quote

Hello,

Last week my friend and I lower the front end of my 67 Notch. She looks great. However, I lowered her by remover the torsion car with the trailing arm by loosening the 13mm bolt and carefully tap it so I can go and move the entire arm & torsion together. I move it up 2 notches and put it all together. However my question is this. I know the torsion bar need to have some pre-tension on it for them to work right. Yes, lowering by the trailing arm that pre-tension is lessen, but not that I move it at the far-end will that effect the pretention?

I know when I installed other rear torsion bar they have to be installed a certain way. If someone can answer the question then I know if I am OK or need to redo the front and do it the right way.

Paul Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 12954
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Lowering my Type 3 using the outer splines Reply with quote

Paul da Graca wrote:
Hello,

Last week my friend and I lower the front end of my 67 Notch. She looks great. However, I lowered her by remover the torsion car with the trailing arm by loosening the 13mm bolt and carefully tap it so I can go and move the entire arm & torsion together. I move it up 2 notches and put it all together. However my question is this. I know the torsion bar need to have some pre-tension on it for them to work right. Yes, lowering by the trailing arm that pre-tension is lessen, but not that I move it at the far-end will that effect the pretention?

I know when I installed other rear torsion bar they have to be installed a certain way. If someone can answer the question then I know if I am OK or need to redo the front and do it the right way.

Paul Smile


Paul, you'll be fine. I've used this method on a bunch of type 3s over the years without issue. There's 3 things you'll need to keep in mind. One, that you might be sitting on the rubber bumpers, so you'll have no suspension (just remove them), two, with tall (165-80-15's) you might rub the outer edge of the fender lip, and 3, you need to have a front end alignment done (you'll be about 1 inch toe out). Note, this applies to either lowering method.

Think of it this way, you can either adjust the bar and trailing arm up, or just the trailing arm up. They both basically do the same thing, in that you're taking away "pre-tension" from the bar. The biggest difference, is that the "inner" end of the bar has coarse splines. This causes more of a movement (larger drop). It's not much more, but it does drop more, than removing the trailing arm alone.

And the reason the bars have to be installed a certain way, is because of the splines (one end has less splines than the other), but also a right bar must be installed on the right side (or left on the left), due to VW putting in some "pre-tension" into the bar itself, so it'll act like a spring. I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Clatter wrote:
Unfortunately, a height that works well doesn't really look that low in the end...

Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul da Graca
Samba Member


Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 50
Location: The Netherlands
Paul da Graca is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Bob. I am running 16 inch Boxster rims with 185x50x16 with an ET of 55 and they fit like a glove. Ok I had the front ones narrowed to 16x6J. So if I lower it 2 spline by the bolt and 1 spine by the trailing arm I can fine tune my lowering job. I am using Koni Special D shocks to stiffen up the suspension a bit.

Thanks Bob
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 12954
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul da Graca wrote:
So if I lower it 2 spline by the bolt and 1 spine by the trailing arm I can fine tune my lowering job. I am using Koni Special D shocks to stiffen up the suspension a bit.

Thanks Bob


Actually, that's exactly how VW designed the torsion bars (for fine tuning the ride height). What you might find, however, is that you might drop the outer 3 splines, and come back up 1 on the inner, or some other combo. I've found that doing the rear, in which you'll move the inner end of the bar 2 splines CW, while raising the spring plate 3 splines CCW to get a 1.5 spline drop that levels the car. I know the numbers don't match like you would think, but you also have to take the sag (wear/age) of the torsion bar(s) into account too (once it's back on the ground).

It's been a while since I've done exact measurements of how much each spline changes a particular end, so I don't know exactly how much what you want to do, will return. Lately, I've just gone to using an angle finder, moving both sides the same amount, then using a tape measure to see IF I'm even side to side, and front to back on my numbers. If I'm not, then I'll figure out which side I need to adjust, then work it until I get what I'm after. It's just not a cut and dry method, as wear of components comes into play, and 1 side might be a little more worn (softer) than the other side.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Clatter wrote:
Unfortunately, a height that works well doesn't really look that low in the end...

Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul da Graca
Samba Member


Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 50
Location: The Netherlands
Paul da Graca is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob I understand what you mean. Thanks

I do have another issue. I installed the 16x7J with ET 55 on the back with out spacers an as i was pulling her outside I was hitting the upper bump stop. So I order 1.5mm spacer to move it away. It should clear the upper bump stop but considering cutting it away to make sure it doesn't rub. I should be OK to do that?

Paul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RafCarre12
Samba Member


Joined: January 06, 2008
Posts: 1017
Location: Glen Rock, NJ
RafCarre12 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yup! twist the rubber stopper off and grind down the lip. easy peasy.
_________________
Type 3 Fasty
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul da Graca
Samba Member


Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 50
Location: The Netherlands
Paul da Graca is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys for your support here some photos for what I done

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.[/img]


Last edited by Paul da Graca on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:40 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul da Graca
Samba Member


Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 50
Location: The Netherlands
Paul da Graca is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here the photo with the lower front

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sharkskinman
Lateral Lunatic


Joined: April 26, 2006
Posts: 3861
Location: Deep In My Own Psyche
sharkskinman is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same thought.
Lowered rear All outer splines
Seems soft
so if I use both inner and outer
Can I put to same height but have a tighter response ?
_________________
4/71 ~311 "Bettie" (F.I./Auto)

Supaninja wrote:
BTW none of us are "buggin" here, we roll something far superior to a bug

Ward Cleaver wrote:
You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards


PS3 Black Ops "NKOGNEATO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul da Graca
Samba Member


Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 50
Location: The Netherlands
Paul da Graca is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am using Koni Special D shocks that you can adjust the firmness of the ride. so I plan to go 3 twist up front and 4 on the back. That should give me the same ride up front as if was stock and in the rear a firm back end.

As bart mention you can find tune the height, but the firm feel with be lessen as there less tension. Now if Sway Away makes thicker torsion bars like they do on the back.... I think you can have a lowered front end with the same stock firmness or more.


Just a thought
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
W1K1
Samba Member


Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 2721
Location: Southern AB
W1K1 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a difference in thickness in the front torsion bars early to late although I'm not sure where the change occurred.

There is a chart somewhere on here that specifies the angle change for 1 notch inner and outer.
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Randall
Samba Member


Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 741
Location: the OC
Randall is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
It's been a while since I've done exact measurements of how much each spline changes a particular end, so I don't know exactly how much what you want to do, will return. Lately, I've just gone to using an angle finder, moving both sides the same amount, then using a tape measure to see IF I'm even side to side, and front to back on my numbers. If I'm not, then I'll figure out which side I need to adjust, then work it until I get what I'm after....

For the front suspension, there are 29 splines on the inner end and 31 on the outer end.
360/29 = 1224.8' and
360/31 = 1136.8'
.. . . . . . . . . . . 48' difference

So the smallest change you can make is by turning one spline on each end -- giving you 48 minutes, which won't change the ride level much.

If you wanted to be even more exacting you could achieve a change of 24 minutes by moving the torsion arm 15 splines and the inner end of the bar 14 splines. To do that you would have to keep a close monitor when you are counting 15 splines and 14 splines. Brick wall

It's a good idea to have a Type 3 manual handy so you will know how much to torque the various nuts and bolts. The one I used for the torsion bar adjustment is by Haynes. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/books/haynest3.jpg You can order it by its ISBN: 0900550848
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 12954
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randall wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
It's been a while since I've done exact measurements of how much each spline changes a particular end, so I don't know exactly how much what you want to do, will return. Lately, I've just gone to using an angle finder, moving both sides the same amount, then using a tape measure to see IF I'm even side to side, and front to back on my numbers. If I'm not, then I'll figure out which side I need to adjust, then work it until I get what I'm after....

For the front suspension, there are 29 splines on the inner end and 31 on the outer end.
360/29 = 1224.8' and
360/31 = 1136.8'
.. . . . . . . . . . . 48' difference


Actually I was meaning how many inches each spline of drop gave. Rolling Eyes I used to have that info on a "cheat sheet", but I've lost it from doing both shop and house cleaning activities. I had spent a day working on the front of a car, that would allow the lower trailing arms to be removed without any fuss, and I spent the day just dropping it 1 spline at a time. Then I reset everything back to stock, and did the same thing with the inner end of the bar. I think the difference between the 2 ends was 9/16ths of an inch in drop. But I've slept since then. When I was doing my 71 Notch, I spent a day doing the rear the same way. I just can't remember what the rear difference was though (it was 4 years ago). But I wanted to find out how much either end of the bar, on each end of the car would drop it. That way IF I ever needed to fine tune a ride height that I liked, I could do it. Wink

W1K1, I didn't know there was a thickness change to the front torsion bars thru the years. The upper sway IS thicker on a Square though, mainly due to the added weight it'll carry. Same appilies to the rear torsion bars, as they're thicker to handle the extra weight a Square can carry.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Clatter wrote:
Unfortunately, a height that works well doesn't really look that low in the end...

Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 12954
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sharkskinman wrote:
Same thought.
Lowered rear All outer splines
Seems soft
so if I use both inner and outer
Can I put to same height but have a tighter response ?


No. To do what you want, you'll need a different set of torsion bars.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Clatter wrote:
Unfortunately, a height that works well doesn't really look that low in the end...

Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Randall
Samba Member


Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 741
Location: the OC
Randall is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
I used to have that info on a "cheat sheet", but I've lost it...

Glenn Ring (AKA Glenn on theSamba) has a table at his website showing the torsion bar incremental change in both degrees and centimeters for the Beetle rear torsion bar. The Type 3 bar has 40 splines on the inner end and 44 on the outer end, giving a minimum change of 49.1. The Beetle has the same number of splines as the Type 3. http://www.glenn-ring.com/tech/low.html (Deleting low.html from the URL takes you to the parent page showing the Beetle reference.)
Those figures are probably close enough for figuring the changes made to the front torsion bar of the Type 3. The distance between the center of rotation of both the torsion bar and its corresponding axle would be different for the front and rear ends but close enough for our purpose.

If you have trouble visualizing centimeters like I (and probably most of us on TheSamba) do, then you will have to use your calculator and multiply the figures in the far right column of the table by 0.3937 to arrive at the change in inches.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Infamousaircooled
Samba Member


Joined: December 14, 2011
Posts: 56
Location: Brighton,Co
Infamousaircooled is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just purchased a 66 squareback and I'm not familiar with these front ends. As I read it has torsion bars like the rear?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paul da Graca
Samba Member


Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 50
Location: The Netherlands
Paul da Graca is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the front and back have Torsion bars. I just lower the front and it was easy. only a few hours. If you go to Google and type in how to lower a type 3 VW, there a guy show how he lowered his squareback. I did his method of lowering as I could get the trailing arm off the torsion bar, but what I will do is use my angle finder to see where it sitting now and take the entire torsion bar and trailing arm out and use my press to remove the two and then re install it and fine tune the lower job so that my 185x50x16 tire will have about a 1/2 inch space above the tire for clearance. that what I want! Smile

Bob and the rest, thanks for the input. I will show the final result when I modifed the lower stance.

BTW I have on the back 195 and they are tuck under the fender with 1 inch of room! It all about the ET!!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Infamousaircooled
Samba Member


Joined: December 14, 2011
Posts: 56
Location: Brighton,Co
Infamousaircooled is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks I will check it out! If you guys are interested check us out on Facebook and at Infamousaircooled.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bobnotch
Samba Member


Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 12954
Location: Kimball, Mi
Bobnotch is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or you could go to the top of the forum page, and open the FAQ. The first section at the top is suspension and lowering. There's direct links with both pics, and videos. Very Happy
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Clatter wrote:
Unfortunately, a height that works well doesn't really look that low in the end...

Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sharkskinman
Lateral Lunatic


Joined: April 26, 2006
Posts: 3861
Location: Deep In My Own Psyche
sharkskinman is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to this day i still dont understand why people Keep taking off the nut for the ball joint for the front
You Dont Have To

all you have to do is take the opposing bolt out and once you get it out either
Push/Pull it up/down where you want it +/-3
_________________
4/71 ~311 "Bettie" (F.I./Auto)

Supaninja wrote:
BTW none of us are "buggin" here, we roll something far superior to a bug

Ward Cleaver wrote:
You ever try a pink golf ball, Wally? Why, the wind shear alone on a pink golf ball can take the head off a 90-pound midget at over 300 yards


PS3 Black Ops "NKOGNEATO"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Type 3 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2013, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB