14" front discs - my babystang install and review

[David Raistrick]

(first part trimmed from a post to type2.com in response to a query about disc options for a split)

I recently made the switch to front discs on my '66 (stock height, redux boxes, and 14" wheels). There are basically 4 choices to fit 14" wheels - Nate @ wagenswest's Babystangs, CSP's kit, SACO's kit, and Russell @ oldspeed's kit.

There are currently no rear disc options for redux box axles.

I've been running the babystang's since mid october (14th, to be exact) and daily driving the bus most of the time since. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...start=9861



Nate uses mildly modified vented mustang 2 discs with integrated hub, and wilwood 4 piston calipers + a set of wide 5 adaptors. Continues to use stock lug bolts, and increases track width by ~~1/4" per side (my personal measurement - Nate claimed zero change) - ~$1065 shipped

CSP uses solid disc of their own mfr with integrated wide 5 hub, pontiac lemans single piston calipers. decreases track width by ~~8mm per side, switches to studs and lug nuts ~$1400 + shipping

Saco's kit uses a custom wide 5 hub w/ bolt on solid drilled rotor and 4 piston wilwood knockoff caliper - there were to many complaints on these for me to be interested (and I don't believe a drilled rotor belongs on a stock street bus, either). also converts to stud/nut. unknown track change. ~900+shipping

Russell @ oldspeed's setup uses vented 944 rotors (turned down to fit a 14" wheel), 944 front hub (I believe), wide 5 adaptor, and willwood 4 piston caliper. russ claims no track change. also converts to stud/nut. ~$1500 delivered


I ruled out the saco kit due to the rotors and complaints (and really, if you're going to use a wilwood like caliper, why not use the real thing?) first.

The CSP kit I eventually ruled out for a few reasons: No replacement rotors available except directly from CSP - and they're not a common off the shelf piece. with 8.5x27" tires, I had -no- wiggle room to reduce track width. I just lightly rubbed the pass side at full left lock under power already. and, if I had a choice I'd prefer a vented rotor.


That left me tossing around Nate vs Russ - both rotors are commonly available, but both require minor machine work (which any local machine shop could reproduce when needed). both vented, both using (effectively) the same caliper and pads (and pads commonly available since wilwood has been making aftermarket calipers for a loooong time), and both requiring a wide 5 adaptor (from ford 5x4.5 or from porsche 5x130). Nate's kit let me continue using lug bolts....so it won.



For a master cyl I strongly recommend using a stock split bus 67 master (22mm bore). If your reservoir has a larger chamber on one side, use that side for the front brakes. Remove the residual valve for that circuit and remove the check valve (easy enough - but it wont go back! and reinstall.

I don't recommend using any of the disc brake masters - they have a larger piston bore, requiring more pedal effort. unless you're also going to add a power brake booster (which is custom fab work), in which case use the disc masters!


I swear I took better pictures of the -second- track width change measurements (measuring off of the tie rod mount was much more reliable - and really did result in the whel mounting surface moving out 1/4" on each side) but I can't find them. So guess not. There are some less accurate ones in the album (measuring off the upper link pin, which isn't as accurate since the relationship changes when the spindle turns..)



So enough discussion - on to the pictures! For the full set see: http://www.icantclick.org/gallery2/cars/buspics/babystang-brakes_001/?g2_page=1

The box - securely packaged!

inside:

Here's the rotor hub - inner lip machined to fit the VW seal. This would be all that's needed to fit a set of off the shelf rotors on later.

Gutting a residual valve (in this case, off an old core MC I had floating around):

There's actually room to move the wide 5 adapter closer - a lot of that 1/4" track width could be reduced by recessing the two pieces of the wide 5 adapter further - but

[img][/img]

it would mean needing to switch to studs instead of lugs bolts.... Also note for you guys with custom wheels! Take care that you studs don't hit!

A stupid gotcha here - really the only problem I had with the install. The bleeder is the little black piece, NOT the brass fitting it's screwed into....duh!

so don't do this:

caliper bracket:

installed rotor (bearings and caps included!):

and the finished product:

[edited to fix Nate's name! sigh! ]

[epayne611]

Thanks for writing that up! I'm pretty much sold on these. How would you say the difference is quantitatively vs the drums now?

[fluxcap]

[Ragman]

[NorCalWeekender]

Great review! I was one of the guys who popped on the SACO kit and managed to install it with no directions whatsoever and had no idea about the residual pressure valve until about 1,000 miles in. Pure facepalm moment.

While I still get some wobble from them while stopping, I understand there are likely a few things I can do to help eliminate that...including using a softer pad.

Regardless, I'm really wishing I had known about or had waited for this kit. It looks great and I've heard good stuff about it.
_________________
9th Owner of a 1971 Tintop Westy

"Eventually, we sold to a guy for $500 who towed it away to live in it in his parents' driveway. We didn't think it would ever avoid the junk heap on that day." -The 3rd Owner, 1995

[David Raistrick]

[MrPolak]

Thank you for the write up. These are high on my list of must-have mods.

[Ragman]

[fluxcap]

[earlywesty]

Too bad they aren't available for 63 and earlier.... late splits only according to the website....

[David Raistrick]

[smitty24]

Great writeup on the stangs...

I know the Wagenswest guys pretty well. Do you mean "Nate?" or does he have someone named Wade working there, now?

Nate Curtis is the owner.

[David Raistrick]

[fluxcap]

[David Raistrick]

[smitty24]

Its all good.

I am curious how his kit compares to CSP's?? That is one deterrent I have with CSP is the reason you stated= NO replacement part that is easy to obtain, unless straight from CSP. No one in the states would be able to get you parts, in an emergency. On the stangs, you could literally walk into a good parts store and pick up parts for far less, and quicker.

I appreciate your write up! Nate doesn't put a lot of instructions out there, with his parts. One thing Ive always had an issue with. Most of us figure it out, after we screw up a couple times! I am wanting to try his kit, when funds allow. Those of us with straight axled rear ends with small bug brakes, could really benefit. Ive noticed on my bug drum rears, the front stock bus brakes wear more since they are doing more of the braking, compensating for the rear.

Ive noticed that most people that complain about their stock bus brakes is that their drums are out of round, not adjusted properly, and have worn out springs, shoes, and cylinders. My bus has a full rebuilt braking system, but is still a bus full of weight. It stops nothing like my '63 ragtop with front disc kit. Buses will never stop like a bug. I think some folks buy disc kits thinking it will stop like a Carrera. Improvement over stock is all I look for, to justify price.

[David Raistrick]

[David Raistrick]

[chrisflstf]

Alot of good info here. Someone has spent alot of time researching this

[smitty24]

so David, you said you were NOT running the booster, correct? Just a standard dual circuit mc with residual valve removed? I can't remember what you said, or maybe it was a different poster.