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krusher Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2002 Posts: 7652 Location: europe
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:36 am Post subject: Magnaspark digital or other timing maps |
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I would me interested to see what others are running as timing maps and what they have found to work best.
I know every engine requires different advance, but it would be interesting to find what others have found works best for them and why? _________________ (06:31:07) RoachGhia: "i drink dick way too fast" |
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j-dub Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003 Posts: 865 Location: Phoenix, AZ
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Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Magnaspark digital or other timing maps |
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krusher wrote: |
I would me interested to see what others are running as timing maps and what they have found to work best.
I know every engine requires different advance, but it would be interesting to find what others have found works best for them and why? |
I have been starting to play with the CB magnaspark digital and am quite interested in optimizing my timing map as well. _________________ 1957 Oval rag
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN ... Cops have nothing to go on." |
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bowen71 Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2004 Posts: 86 Location: Oceanside, CA
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Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I am also about to install the dizzy. Anything I need to know before I put it in? _________________ They dont leak they mark there spot!!! |
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HBRag Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2005 Posts: 735 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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OK I'll post mine. Please know that it is still in the experemental phase, and I would not consider this a final or even necessarily a proper map. I was still working through AFR and EGT data, when I got side tracked.
This is the default NA Dual carb map;
The engine is NA 2276cc with 86b Cam, DRLA 45s and 9.3:1 CR. I ended up needing more timing in sooner than the default map, and added a bit more advance under light load and lower RPMs.
I also added an idle valley at 800 RPM, which helped idle stability tremendously. This really made a difference in cold start and setup of the carbs. Before the valley, the engine hunted a bit and the idle time bounced around. I ended up backing the initial timing down from the default of 15 degrees to 10 degrees, and opening up the throttle valve a bit more for the same RPM. It may also be of interest to note that idle MAP is in the 82-86 range, but will drop down into the mid 60's under light load.
I was working out a slight lean spot in progression, at 3200 RPMs when I took this screen shot. My cruising EGTs seem a bit high, but WOT is in range and it runs fairly well.
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E4ODnut Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2013 Posts: 168 Location: Gibsons BC Canada
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Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Looks to me like the default map is basically a mechanical curve. With that cam, dual DLAR 45s and an idle MAP of 82 to 86 KPA, can you really use MAP as a load reference? Does your system allow you to use a combination of TPS and RPM instead of MAP?
I suspect that you could use a lot more advance at idle and light load but I don't know how you could program it using MAP for load. |
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HBRag Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2005 Posts: 735 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm running the Magnaspark digital, and it is RPM and MAP. I can log TPS to my innovate unit, but there is no programming for it on the ignition.
The engine just started to behave normally with the increase early and cruise settings. I haven't gotten back to it, to try more. I had a very slight lean spot at 3200 RPM, which I changed the air jets for. I haven't goofed with the timing since.
I was increasing timing to lean cruise further, and just couldn't get it to respond correctly in the 16:1 AFR range. I found an error in the instrumentation that I haven't sorted yet, but getting the progression smoothed out helped. |
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Pat D Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004 Posts: 414
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Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:40 am Post subject: |
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HBRag wrote: |
OK I'll post mine. Please know that it is still in the experemental phase, and I would not consider this a final or even necessarily a proper map. I was still working through AFR and EGT data, when I got side tracked.
This is the default NA Dual carb map;
The engine is NA 2276cc with 86b Cam, DRLA 45s and 9.3:1 CR. I ended up needing more timing in sooner than the default map, and added a bit more advance under light load and lower RPMs.
I also added an idle valley at 800 RPM, which helped idle stability tremendously. This really made a difference in cold start and setup of the carbs. Before the valley, the engine hunted a bit and the idle time bounced around. I ended up backing the initial timing down from the default of 15 degrees to 10 degrees, and opening up the throttle valve a bit more for the same RPM. It may also be of interest to note that idle MAP is in the 82-86 range, but will drop down into the mid 60's under light load.
I was working out a slight lean spot in progression, at 3200 RPMs when I took this screen shot. My cruising EGTs seem a bit high, but WOT is in range and it runs fairly well.
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You should re configure your load boundaries. I would start at 75kpa and blend over to 100kpa. This will give you better resolution in your spark table. _________________ Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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bowen71 Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2004 Posts: 86 Location: Oceanside, CA
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Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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This dizzy is great but, I am way over my head when it comes to adjusting it. I guess it would help if I had an EGT and O2 sensors to go off of. I know its way smoother than it was with the cheap 009.
I don't even know where to start. _________________ They dont leak they mark there spot!!! |
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bowen71 Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2004 Posts: 86 Location: Oceanside, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: |
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This is what I am using right now.
Here are the specs 71 Super 2110 42x37.5 4:1 rockers CR 8.2:1 44 IDF's (36
vent, 55idle,135main,190air and f11 tube) Cam is a K8ish (DRD special
grind he says is close to the K8 ) 1 5/8 A1 sidewinder and a MSD6A with
CB MS coil Plugs NGK BP6ES gap .035. I have stock gear ratios for a 71
super and 25 3/4 inch tall tires.
It cruises at 75mph at around 3800rpm. _________________ They dont leak they mark there spot!!!
Last edited by bowen71 on Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:24 am Post subject: |
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If you don't have wideband O2 yet the following will be slightly pointless, but anyway...
You should have more timing in the vacuum parts of the map above 2500 RPM, to simulate vac advance. But it only helps if you can verify you have leaned the mixture in those parts of the map suitably, hence the need for O2 data. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Eaallred Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003 Posts: 5756 Location: West Valley City, Utah
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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More engine vacuum, more ignition timing, you'll have to play with the off-idle advance area as you come off the rpms when revving it, too high and it will want to hunt and stay higher in the rpms when it's revved. At wide open throttle, you want/need more timing before the engine "gets on the cam", and less timing once you're in the power band.
It all plays to how efficient the engine is behaving in each cell. More efficient, less timing and vice versa. _________________ Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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bowen71 Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2004 Posts: 86 Location: Oceanside, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Eaallred wrote: |
More engine vacuum, more ignition timing, you'll have to play with the off-idle advance area as you come off the rpms when revving it, too high and it will want to hunt and stay higher in the rpms when it's revved. At wide open throttle, you want/need more timing before the engine "gets on the cam", and less timing once you're in the power band.
It all plays to how efficient the engine is behaving in each cell. More efficient, less timing and vice versa. |
Thanks for the info, I guess the question is how much timing can I go without damage to the engine. If I know my cam comes in at 2k then I need more timing before that point. But how do you figure the vacuum into that? _________________ They dont leak they mark there spot!!! |
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Superman74 Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2013 Posts: 192 Location: Tampa, Florida
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:28 pm Post subject: Great thread. |
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I also am building a 2110 and have the magnaspark II digital. I was relieved to have someone help me get a decent combination of components but it seems "it all in the tune." I have a steep learning curve when it comes to timing, vacuum and such. I hope this thread comes alive as a tutorial of sorts. Thanks for the read thus far. |
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pig-pen Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012 Posts: 570 Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Magnaspark digital or other timing maps |
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Hoping someone can help me understand here... please be gentle if I have got this all wrong!!!
I have a magna spark which I am looking to put on my 36hp motor with charger.
I took a little time to map (or so I think) the VJUR 4 Br8 distributor as a starting point, with a simple 1° off for each lb of boost, which will be no more than 7lbs max.
so, the original dizzy mechanical advance is 7.5° static, up to 23° @3400rpm
the original vac can is 1° to 17° from 5 inHG (85kpa) to 15inHG (51kpa)
so my max total advance is 40°, reduced to 33° at 7lbs boost.
I could probably do with revising these figures as I took them from the upper levels of the brackets. however what I need to understand is how to put these into the table.
I set the table to go from 51kpa to 178kpa
Question is, If I have kpa advance/retard across the top and mech adv down the left, do I add the two together in each cell? `doing so gives me a very different looking table from any seen here.... so Im a bit confused tbh. Any advice on how to make the two advances work together on the table?
Apologies, done in excel for now... blue line is where vac is coming in.
_________________ 1954 L227 Type 113
1964 L31 Type 265
Last edited by pig-pen on Sat May 27, 2023 2:50 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2714 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Magnaspark digital or other timing maps |
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My 1641in a bus.
IAT is around 95F because of stock heated air intake. AFR around 12.5-13.5:1 at WOT.
Nothing special, based off a stock distributor curve. STM32F103 Controller talks to EDIS module. So that's crank fire wasted spark.
I added the centrifugal to the vacuum advance for a 205AL curve for cells above 1000 rpm.
I flattened it off at 750 rpm with a valley to stabilise cold idle. My engine idles pretty well at 750 rpm but then rises to 1000rpm warm.
I flattened it off above 4500 rpm because while my engine reaches 5500 rpm I dont want to exceed 4500 in normal service..
I dont yet have my AFR hooked up or any firmware code to handle adjustment of the vacuum advance.
Beats wobbly old Bosch distributors and wobbly Chinese distributors. Noticeably more torque mid range.. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy
Last edited by mikedjames on Sat May 27, 2023 12:56 am; edited 6 times in total |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4026 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Magnaspark digital or other timing maps |
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Anything from 100 kpa down can be mapped like the distributor diagram you have posted if desired.
Anything above 100 kpa (boost) should be mapped carefully and 33 degrees advance is too much for a boosted engine.
Ignition advance is more based on Intake Air Temps than boost to a degree.
With a blower it is always making hot air so your ignition advance will need to be adjusted down accordingly.
If I were you I would be very careful with any advance over the standard 30 degrees unless in very light cruise...... seeing as how a blower will see cruise IAT's as high as 160 degrees F........You might want to weigh your options.
I myself have found that IAT's above 130 degrees F. need caution and adjustment on cruise ignition advance.
When I drive our buggy from Washington State to California I have to lower my cruise advance because I see cruise IAT's of 130 degrees F. quite easily.
My turbo will add about 10-20 degrees to the ambient temps and in Cali you can easily see temps of 106* F. or more when driving through the Barstow area.
With my ECU I can have it retard timing according to Intake temp and also boost.
I use the IAT feature in cruise...... It helps so I don't have to remap my advance bins if I do long distance travel. _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
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pig-pen Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2012 Posts: 570 Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Magnaspark digital or other timing maps |
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hey, thanks for this.
just edited post above with table...
updated with 30° max advance across the board... does this look like it might be 'right'?
_________________ 1954 L227 Type 113
1964 L31 Type 265 |
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