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Vanagon 1.6na to 1.9TDI 1Z upgrade
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BigLarry
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject: Vanagon 1.6na to 1.9TDI 1Z upgrade Reply with quote

Hello fellow VW heads--I am in the process of upgrading my 82, 1.6 diesel to a 1.9TDI 1Z from a 96 Passat. I have a question I was hoping someone can help me answer:

1. Should I transfer all the wiring to the van, or should I make the 1Z mechanical? If mechanical, by ANY chance could the 1.6's injector pump be used? What else would need to be adjusted? The turbo waste gate?

Thank you.
BL
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svenakela
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1.6 pump, no.
You can do it with an AAZ pump even though other pumps are preferred (Landy etc). But if you have the donor car, just take the original system. Same amount of time and you save money (yet another pump is not needed).

My 2 c's
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did an ALH in my Vanagon.

I did a "complete" (as complete as possible) integration of the wiring harness bits, sensors, etc., as possible.... such as, Jetta Cluster, coolant level, fuel level, windshield washer level, ignition (double ignition with immoblizer), signal lights, emergency flasher, cruise, safety switches on the clutch/brake pedals, TDI AC unit, etc. Lots of wiring to do... works though!

The TDI engine will not be as smooth as the 1.6 engine. However, it will have loads of power. I upgraded my tranny with taller 3rd and 4th gears to slow down the engine. I also went with 215/75/15 tires/wheels.

Here is a link to the project: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=276798
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1983 Vanagon, non-Westy, Air-cooled Gasoline, driven to Alaska 7 times.
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Andrew A. Libby
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A stock 1.6 or AAZ pump would be downright pathetic for fueling an mTDI. The timing advance curve is wrong. The camplate is flat in comparison to a proper TDI one. The 9mm plunger would be inadequate. The accelerator lever offset is very limiting and the control lever offset is similarly limiting so the overall effect would be a severely underpowered installation. There's a fair amount of info on the interwebs regarding what works much better, e.g. a landrover 300TDI or Cummins 4BTA pump but each has it's own issues. It is also possible to combine the parts of an eTDI pump and a 1.6 or AAZ pump and come up with something somewhat adequate but knowing what to keep and what to swap takes some experience and you're still relegated to the weaker 17mm main shaft and either some custom parts or parts from a third pump. There are several people who offer proper mTDI pumps including myself and Karl Mullendore of Westyventures. I'd recommend settling in for a lot of reading on how to make an mTDI pump along with a fair bit of time/experimentation to get it right or pony up for a pre-built one from someone who knows what they are doing.
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rsxsr
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I grafted the wiring from the TDI engine into the Vanagon's electrical system. It was fairly straight forward. That said, a strickly mechanical pump has a lot of appeal to me. I just started having a hard start hot problem that I have traced to the electronics, but not sure if it is the chicken or the egg. If you are unfamiliar with the electronics of the TDI engine, your engine choice along with a adapted mechanical pump should have you up and going in a couple weeks. I spent probably 80 hours sorting out my wiring sitting on the back of the van with two Bentley manuals, ohm meter, testlight, and some masking tape for marking the wires I identified. Either way, you will end up with a great ride.
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Andrew A. Libby
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I swapped out the 1.6TD and installed my mTDI in two weekends which included remaking the exhaust due to the height change of the block. I have less than 80 hours total into the swap and the performance easily exceeds that of a stock eTDI by a decent margin. At $15 per hour a brand new properly built mTDI pump is more economical than spending 80 hours doing wiring.
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AKAvant
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I ran this pump on a 1Z in my old Eurovan Weekender. I used stock injectors and the thing was a beast and still got over 35mpg average. With a taller 5th gear it was an amazing cruiser. It sounded like a mack truck but the idle was smooth with minimal smoke.

http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php...3e3e39cc4b
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rsxsr
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
I swapped out the 1.6TD and installed my mTDI in two weekends which included remaking the exhaust due to the height change of the block. I have less than 80 hours total into the swap and the performance easily exceeds that of a stock eTDI by a decent margin. At $15 per hour a brand new properly built mTDI pump is more economical than spending 80 hours doing wiring.


Exactly. My conversion was started in 2000. Two things I did not know. One, the earlier TDI was more of a direct bolt in and that there were adapted mechanical pumps available. Andy Bees over on the TDI club website documented an ALH TDI install into his vanagon. I believe it took close to 3 years to complete and it is not really complete, but useable. http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=276798 Well documented.
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Andrew A. Libby
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read Any Bees thread. It's definitely a great read. I will be installing an mTDI ALH into a vanagon (15 install) in the next few months and will run the stopwatch to see how long it takes. Very Happy
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many of the hassles and headaches associated with installing an ALH into a van are being addressed by FAS's new 50 degree oil pan and mounting system?
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outwesty
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
At $15 per hour a brand new properly built mTDI pump is more economical than spending 80 hours doing wiring.


I know very little about wiring and it took me only 3 days to build a complete harness for my AHU swap including the pedal and 4 gauges up front. The wiring on the 1z/ AHU is pretty simple.
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Like my DBW ALH Reply with quote

ALH electronics... Drive by Wire vs mTDI

Well, from the time I started the project (on paper), late fall of '09 until I started the engine in August of 2012, there was a ton of personal issues on my plate.
..mother-in-law succumb to melanomia (my wife and I were there with her daily 99% of the time for over 6 months, sugeries, etc)
..brother-in-law succumb to lung cancer (my wife and I were there with him daily 95% of the time for over 6 months, radiation, chemo, etc.)
..my wife had to have spinal surgery
..my father went down hill that involved a lot of my attention, hospital, nursing home..he died 5/16/12
..theives broke into his house (the trial was the day after he died)
..nephew's wife committed sucide (we were there for family support numerous days)
..cousin's wife succumb to lung cancer (we were there for family support)
..close uncle passed due to a hospital screw-up (MRSA)
..helped my brother with remodeling his rent house
..other (lots of it, to much to detail)

I'm not whinning, but what we read in a project has no reflection on reality.
.......................................................................................
So, I had to work my project as I could. Many times I would leave it laying for weeks. It's tough to go back and pick up where you left off in those circumstances. I also did more than just an engine install!...AC revamp, suspension, brakes, transmission rebuild, coolant piping issues, fuel tank, etc.

Those who have been following the project, know I went far beyond what most people do with an ALH and it's electronics! I believe when it is tweaked it will be as good as or better than any mTDI on the road!

I could do the next one fairly quick.... Very Happy
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1983 Vanagon, non-Westy, Air-cooled Gasoline, driven to Alaska 7 times.
'84 Vanagon non-Westy, ALH TDI engine, completed 8/2012. Driven to Nova Scotia 9/13 and Alaska 7/-8/14..pulling a PopUp Camper.
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
How many of the hassles and headaches associated with installing an ALH into a van are being addressed by FAS's new 50 degree oil pan and mounting system?


Hi Casey!

do you have a link for that?

thanks Smile
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syncroserge
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:
do you have a link for that?


http://www.foreignautosupply.com/
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CdnVWJunkie Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Like my DBW ALH Reply with quote

AndyBees wrote:


I'm not whinning, but what we read in a project has no reflection on reality.

I could do the next one fairly quick.... Very Happy


Life does have a habit of getting in the doesn't it Andy? I know preciously what you mean when you go back after a duration of time. A bit of head scratching before momentum is picked up again.

With recent developments putting a newer ALH or newer PD engine into T3s is going to be much easier from here on out. Couple that with one of Davids Subie transmissions, boy that would make for a nice ride.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:
Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
How many of the hassles and headaches associated with installing an ALH into a van are being addressed by FAS's new 50 degree oil pan and mounting system?


Hi Casey!

do you have a link for that?

thanks Smile


Hey dude, I don't have any experience with this stuff or a connection to the vendor, but it does appear to be a game-changer for those looking to install '98 and later VW inline engines under the decklid. Link to pics
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'89 Bluestar WBX --> ALH
'90 300D OM602t
'87 300TD OM606t
Heckflosse MoM project
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freddie.#1
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Advanced Auto Motion MTDI injection pump Reply with quote

AKAvant wrote:
I ran this pump on a 1Z in my old Eurovan Weekender. I used stock injectors and the thing was a beast and still got over 35mpg average. With a taller 5th gear it was an amazing cruiser. It sounded like a mack truck but the idle was smooth with minimal smoke.

http://www.advancedautomotion.com/product_info.php...3e3e39cc4b


Good day,

Are you running the MTDI injection pump from Advanced Auto Motion?

If so, any issues and would you purchase another one?

Thanks in advance
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SyncroGhia
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd use the loom and ECU as per factory.

That way, wherever you are or whoever is working on the van can plug in and diagnose any problems as all shops these days have OBD2 technology. Also, you can get any parts you need off the shelf.

The problem with a mechanical pump is that unless you build it yourself, you'll be stuck to have any issues and tuning sorted by the one person who put it together. Also you may end up with one off parts etc. Not off the shelf stuff.

Just my opinion.

MG
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Andrew A. Libby
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty much ALL of the problems I have seen on TDI engines have been part of the electronic engine management system. The mechanical Bosch VE pumps, if given decent fuel with adequate lubricity are known to last literally several hundred thousand miles without issue. While the electronics may be convenient for diagnosing problems, that convenience is greatly diminished when those problems are caused by failed parts that are only there for the electronic engine management.
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outwesty
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
Pretty much ALL of the problems I have seen on TDI engines have been part of the electronic engine management system. The mechanical Bosch VE pumps, if given decent fuel with adequate lubricity are known to last literally several hundred thousand miles without issue. While the electronics may be convenient for diagnosing problems, that convenience is greatly diminished when those problems are caused by failed parts that are only there for the electronic engine management.


Must disagree. I am not even a mechanic and must say the electronics on a TDI are quite simple. I have respect for the MTDI pumps but saying the electronics conversions add problems is simply not true. As long as your wiring is protected you are fine (that is the only area I have ever had issues, worn through wires) I have owned 4 TDI jettas , a TDI passat and some older 1.6 diesels. The TDI's are easier to deal with in every aspect in my opinion because of the electronics. To each their own but don't let the wiring scare you away. I am helping a friend put a TDI in a first gen toyota truck and the wiring is the least of our worries.
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