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Vanagon 1.6na to 1.9TDI 1Z upgrade
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AndyBees
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

outwesty wrote:
Andrew A. Libby wrote:
Pretty much ALL of the problems I have seen on TDI engines have been part of the electronic engine management system. The mechanical Bosch VE pumps, if given decent fuel with adequate lubricity are known to last literally several hundred thousand miles without issue. While the electronics may be convenient for diagnosing problems, that convenience is greatly diminished when those problems are caused by failed parts that are only there for the electronic engine management.


Must disagree. I am not even a mechanic and must say the electronics on a TDI are quite simple. I have respect for the MTDI pumps but saying the electronics conversions add problems is simply not true. As long as your wiring is protected you are fine (that is the only area I have ever had issues, worn through wires) I have owned 4 TDI jettas , a TDI passat and some older 1.6 diesels. The TDI's are easier to deal with in every aspect in my opinion because of the electronics. To each their own but don't let the wiring scare you away. I am helping a friend put a TDI in a first gen toyota truck and the wiring is the least of our worries.



I agree 100%. My personal 2000 Jetta TDI has 320k miles and rolling...no electrical issues! I did have to replace the MAF sensor early on.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys apparently are lucky. I own both an eTDI and mTDI and work on both. I have an appreciation for both engine management systems. I have actually dissuaded a couple people from swapping mechanical pumps onto their stock TDIs after they were entirely fed up with the recurring limp mode. I wouldn't recommend going mTDI on a stock eTDI vehicle but I don't think I will ever recommend going with the electronic engine management on a TDI conversion. I haven't had any issues with my mTDI or ANY pump related issues in 20+ years of driving VW diesels other than seals leaking which will occur just as often on eTDIs. The thing that is often not understood is that the eTDI has ALL the mechanical controls plus an added layer of complexity with the electronic control of the mechanical controls. It reminds me of the 80s Mercedes climate control system where the electronic buttons communicate with the climate control brain which controls a series of electric solenoids that control the flow of vacuum to vacuum pods that operate the flaps to control the airflow to the various vents. There is no way that an eTDI engine conversion can ever possibly be as reliable as a properly built mTDI.

Last edited by ?Waldo? on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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outwesty
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew A. Libby wrote:
There is no way that an eTDI engine conversion can ever possibly be as reliable as a properly built mTDI.


hmmm ? I think that might be a stuck in your way comment because there are hundreds of ETDI conversion out there. I am not against MTDI's at all and may even run one on my next tin top syncro project but they are not "more reliable" and are harder to diagnose for the average mechanic. How nice is it to plug in a lap top and be able to briefly run almost every single part of the system with the click of a button just to watch it work....The OBD port on a 1z/AHU only has 3 wires as well..easy to hook up in any Etdi swap. I'm not trying to start an argument but saying an Etdi cant possibly be as reliable as an MTDI is crap. Have a nice evening.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

outwesty wrote:
Andrew A. Libby wrote:
There is no way that an eTDI engine conversion can ever possibly be as reliable as a properly built mTDI.


hmmm ? I think that might be a stuck in your way comment because there are hundreds of ETDI conversion out there.


Not at all. The fact is every eTDI has all the mechanical parts of an mTDI that can fail and they are just as likely to fail on an eTDI. However, the eTDI has a considerable number of additional components that can and on occasion do fail. The fact that there are many eTDI conversions out there is irrelevant to that fact. The fact that the eTDIs can be reliable is a credit to the manufacturer.

Here is a very apt analogy.

On one hand you have a standard dimmer light switch which is operated directly by a user to turn a light to the brightness they desire. The windows have mechanical venetian blinds that can be adjusted by the user to the desired angle.

On the other hand, instead of just a mechanical dimmer switch that turns on or off the light you have the mechanical switch connected to a computer that senses when the switch is thrown by a user. The computer then compares that data to other data from sensors in the room and outside the house that determine how much ambient light there currently is in the room and how much sunlight there is outside. Based on all of that input, the computer determines how brightly to turn on the light if there is not adequate sunlight or, if there is adequate sunlight to meet the demand for added light in the room, the computer activates a solenoid to control the angle of the venetian blinds in the windows. There are additional features to the computer as well. It is fairly easy to hook up a laptop to it and it can graph lots of variable over time including how much light is present in each room of the house (provided the sensors are all within range) and how much light is hitting the windows in the exterior of the house (provided those sensors are working correctly as well), etc, etc. The way the computer actually turns the light up or down is also interesting. It sends a varied pulse width signal to a solenoid that controls an electromechanical variable resister (standard dimmer switch). It has a built in feedback loop that sends information back to the computer regarding the desired and actual resistance and the lumen output of the light. If any of those variables are outside range, then it has a little red light on the switch that is illuminated to alert the user to a potential failure. When the laptop is connected to it, then further information is given to alert the user as to the potential failure. In one case, the lumen output sensor may be out of range indicating that the bulb is burned out. In another case, the desired resistance may not match the actual resistance closely enough indicating that either the variable resister is faulty or the electric solenoid controlling it is faulty. Etc, etc... If the lumen output or resistance is out of range then the computer automatically turns the light to 'safety mode' and the lumen output is limited to that of 7 watt incandescent night light bulb and the blinds are moved to the fully closed position.

I think it is obvious that the first system is intrinsically more reliable. You can argue neat features and I'll buy it. You can even argue that there is a potential increase in energy efficiency. You will never win with reliability. The upside to an eTDI is the electronics and the downside to an eTDI is the electronics.


Last edited by ?Waldo? on Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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outwesty
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit -The one thing I will add is the one Mtdi westy I drove was fine until we got to altitude....it was borderline horrendous as it could not adjust and was billowing smoke.....the pump was from one of the well knowns, wont say who but not from the vanagon crowd. Maybe this can be addressed? This is the one of the main reasons I have not gone for one as I drive from 2500 feet to 7000 ft several times a week. Can this issue be resolved in an MTDI?

The ETDI engine management system is better at optimizing power, economy and emissions at altitude far better than an MTDI from what I have witnessed.


Last edited by outwesty on Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the update.
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outwesty
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

do you have a response for an MTDI at altitude ?
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mTDI has excellent response and I live at 7,000' of elevation. The aneroid of the mechanical injection pump automatically adjusts fueling according to manifold pressure. A diesel has none of the mixture issues inherent to gasoline engines and so while changing altitude will increase turbo lag (on eTDIs or mTDIs) there is no adjustment necessary to the fueling. I didn't catch your edit to your previous post. I can't comment on the mTDI you drove. If it smoked at altitude it sure wasn't built by me. If it was negatively affected by altitude, then something was not right with it. Mine does not smoke at all unless I want it to.
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outwesty
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right on. I'm sure I will end up playing with an Mtdi at some point. I really do like the idea of them. There is a river crossing I always do that is DEEEP and I wish I had an MTDI for those 10 seconds while the engine is submerged. Maybe I should try another one that is set up differently. I still disagree that one is more reliable than the other but we all have our opinions.
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:
Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
How many of the hassles and headaches associated with installing an ALH into a van are being addressed by FAS's new 50 degree oil pan and mounting system?


Hi Casey!

do you have a link for that?

thanks Smile


Hey dude, I don't have any experience with this stuff or a connection to the vendor, but it does appear to be a game-changer for those looking to install '98 and later VW inline engines under the decklid. Link to pics


Thanks Casey Smile

I found a 250 bucks 1Z Tdi engine,so problem solved for me.
I like that oil pan though Smile
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