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ambrynmc Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:47 am Post subject: |
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Glenn wrote: |
Please... this is a transaxle topic, not a engine topic. If you want a engine topic... start one. |
No offense, Kalle, but you appear to be lost. |
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petevdub Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2005 Posts: 205 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Glenn wrote: |
No one mentioned the 912E because they are pretty rare. |
What are they worth? Seems like a decent option to a built berg5 that will run you $5k. _________________ '72 super
'65 21w
'52 split 11C |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76902 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:07 am Post subject: |
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petevdub wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
No one mentioned the 912E because they are pretty rare. |
What are they worth? Seems like a decent option to a built berg5 that will run you $5k. |
I'm not so sure the transmission used in the 912E(923) is specific to that model and not the same one used on the 911T. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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slalombuggy Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 9145 Location: Canada
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:39 am Post subject: |
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petevdub wrote: |
Surprised no one has mentioned the 923.
The Porsche 923 trans was in the '76 911e. 4cyl engine, and big trans case/gears like the later 915/930's. So the 923 is geared for a 4banger, but built like it was bolted to a 6cyl.
I think 2600 were made. Not sure. |
brad |
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ambrynmc Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I think realistically the 923 is too rare to consider.
this is the logic i went through to come to my conclusion.
I looked at the 901/915 transmission and both are expensive and do not appear to be able to handle a lot of horsepower/torque. I am NOT an authority on this, but based this off a lot of reading on the internet.
Several people say that the safe 901 limit is around 150 hp and the 915 is close to 200 hp. I stock 2,0L WRX engine stock puts out +/-220hp and can easily be pushed close to 300 hp. To get a rebuilt 915, you are looking at $2,000 + the conversion parts to mate to subaru is close to $1,350 (nose cone $250, front mount $250, trans flanges $300, shifter $450, shift rod/cable bits $100) plug adapter plate and clutch $800 ($480 plate+flywheel, 215mm clutch $320) and an Subamount engine mount ($300). Total of $4,450 for a trans that I wouldn't push past 250 hp without worrying...
Another option is the bus 091 trans. Biggest minus to me is it's still a 4 speed. I was really wanting overdrive. I called and found out that you would be a fool to not have the trans rebuilt also (same as the 901/915). And the guys recommend getting welded 3rd and 4th gears and you might have to change the R/P ($450 I think?). You also need the Berg nose cone. So figure $800 for the core, $800 to rebuilt it, $700 for welded 3rd/4th, $500 for the GB nose cone = $2,800. Again, if you are mating it to a Subaru engine you need the clutch/flywheel/adapter plate $800 and an Subamount $300. Total of $3,900 for a trans that I probably wouldn't push past the same 250 hp and no over-drive.
So if you go Subaru transmission you need a good TY754 core ($800) plus the Subarugears kit (currently on Group Buy, but I'll use the normal price ($2,500 including the Subamount). Add $200 for bearings/seals, etc. You also need a clutch, I'm assuming a hot one ($450). Total of $3,950 for a trans that can go +350 hp. This price is high since the kit is on sale (see bottom of post) and I can find good cores cheaper than $800, but I didn't include labor for the install, so I would call that a wash (you tell me if that sounds fair).
Honestly, if you aren't planning on running a turbo/hot rod Subaru engine and keep it close to 150 hp, I would look closer at the Berg 5 speed. I read that you can get one put together for about $3,000. But then you need the flywheel, adapter plate and clutch again (but the clutch can be a cheaper Type 1 unit). Still looking at close to $3,700.
Again, I'm NO expert. This is just the logic I went through when I was looking at what transmission to use for my own project. I've been meaning to do a comparison on these transmissions for a while and this seemed to be good opportunity to do it.
Anyway, in case anyone is interested in the Subaru transmission, a few of us put together a group buy over on the STF. We did one last year and it was a good deal for everyone.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=141928
Sorry for long post...I've been thinking a lot about it... |
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Andre@KGPR/Airhead Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2011 Posts: 228 Location: Ventura CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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ambrynmc wrote: |
Several people say that the safe 901 limit is around 150 hp |
A bone stock 1967 911s put out around 160 hp. |
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Jake Raby Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003 Posts: 7433 Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Glenn wrote: |
petevdub wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
No one mentioned the 912E because they are pretty rare. |
What are they worth? Seems like a decent option to a built berg5 that will run you $5k. |
I'm not so sure the transmission used in the 912E(923) is specific to that model and not the same one used on the 911T. |
The 923 transaxle is 912E only. It is basically a 915 with a 901 input shaft and altered gear ratios. They use odd release bearings and a push style clutch, like the 901. _________________ Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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ambrynmc Samba Member
Joined: October 21, 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Andre@KGPR/Airhead wrote: |
ambrynmc wrote: |
Several people say that the safe 901 limit is around 150 hp |
A bone stock 1967 911s put out around 160 hp. |
Well, like I said...I'm no expert. I read as much as I can and base my conclusions off what I consider to be sound logic.
It just didn't make sense to me to risk being wrong with a very expensive transmission. If I didn't have any better options (in my opinion) then my choice might have been different. I know I lot of guys even used these transmissions coupled to small block V-8 s, but when factoring costs in it just didn't seem like the best option.
There is some good information here from what I consider to be a very reputable source
http://rennsportsystems.com/letstalk-2/4-how-to-ma...essscluct/ |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:59 am Post subject: |
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wasent raby coming out with a new 5 speed?? |
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Brian Mathe Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2004 Posts: 168 Location: Delaware
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Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, he is making a 5 speed but it is only sold paired to an engine. Not a bad idea if you are looking for a turn key set up. If I read correct, they gear them to suit the engine package and desired driving style you want. But for the DIY crew, it's not available. _________________ 59 Kombi
66 Porsche 912
50 split-window |
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thebooger Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2009 Posts: 71 Location: Guelph,Ontario
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:50 am Post subject: |
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So can anyone that has bought a Berg 5 speed, chime in and gives some numbers $
Cost with/without core.
How much extra for heavy duty parts?
My big dilemma is whether I should go with a 901 or a Berg 5
My Interior is fresh, done a couple years ago, so I would need to rip up a brand new carpet. for the shifter
I have a 901 core already, so that is a plus.
I have a 2110 that probably makes a modest 160 hp. How long will a Berg 5 hold up to this? (I like to have fun once in a while )
What is involved in changing a 4 speed into a Berg 5? Is this a DIY? Can a local VW shop do this, and for how much? OR is this something that be done by Berg himself?
Just curious, does the 741 have better gearing? Total different mounting system, but doesnt seem like it would be to hard to adapt.
Cheers |
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BDubVdub Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 612
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Just over a week ago I finished a 901 conversion in my 68 Bus. I'll be honest, for the money I spent I couldn't be happier. With a total cost coming in at over $700. I spent $450 on the trans in working condition, $100 on a new throw out bearing a $100 on 2 chromoly cv axles and around a $100 on misc hardware and steel to fabricate mounts and shift linkage. I had everything else. In the Bus I didn't have to graft in the Porsche shifter, so I'm not sure why it would have to be grafted in a Bug. I have a Bug and the area around the shifter looks to be the same as my Buses.
I just drove from Tucson to Phoenix in my Bus and was able to do 65-70 at 3,000 rpm. The 5th gear in the 901 is not ideal for the highway but it still works. You also have to take tire size into consideration. I love the 901 because no matter what gear I'm in I can put the pedal down and just keep pulling. Pulls strong too. I don't do much highway driving at all in the Bus but before with the 002 I could barely get to 55 without screaming at 4,000 rpm. My conversion was very easy and works really well. I'd do it again for sure.
Just a side note: I had some Porsche 5 speed stickers made to replace the 4 speed sticker on a late models ash tray that are for sale. |
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thebooger Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2009 Posts: 71 Location: Guelph,Ontario
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:13 am Post subject: |
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The tunnel on a bug has a round shifter tunnel, where the shifter for a 901 has a flat surface to mount to. Sooo, the round tunnel needs some modification for the shifter to sit nice and flat.
I would like to be able to cruise at 80mph on the hwy and be at 3000rpm or less. Is this doable with the Berg 5? Sounds like the 901 is not suitable for this?
I love the gearing I have for my 4 speed, but on the hwy crusing at 80mph, it will be at 4000 rpm and the oil temp will start rising quick. |
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BDubVdub Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 612
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:54 am Post subject: |
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thebooger wrote: |
The tunnel on a bug has a round shifter tunnel, where the shifter for a 901 has a flat surface to mount to. Sooo, the round tunnel needs some modification for the shifter to sit nice and flat.
I would like to be able to cruise at 80mph on the hwy and be at 3000rpm or less. Is this doable with the Berg 5? Sounds like the 901 is not suitable for this?
I love the gearing I have for my 4 speed, but on the hwy crusing at 80mph, it will be at 4000 rpm and the oil temp will start rising quick. |
What I was getting at with the shifter is that I used a stock Bus shifter with my Porsche 5 speed so I don't see why a stock Bug shifter wouldn't work.
Glenn cruises 80 at 3500 with his Berg. My 901 isn't too far from that. 3000 or less at 80 would be dangerous. Your fan wouldn't be turning fast enough to keep your motor cool. |
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SBD Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2012 Posts: 3269 Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:04 am Post subject: |
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[quote="theboogerI would like to be able to cruise at 80mph on the hwy and be at 3000rpm or less. Is this doable with the Berg 5? Sounds like the 901 is not suitable for this?
I love the gearing I have for my 4 speed, but on the hwy crusing at 80mph, it will be at 4000 rpm and the oil temp will start rising quick.[/quote]
I believe the Berg 5 retains the stock high gear ratio, just gives you a closer spread through the gears. You'd be limited to whatever you could come up with in the way of stock type VW high gear and R&P ratio. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76902 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:51 am Post subject: |
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There is a huge range of gear ratios available for the VW Type 1 tranny.
Pick the ones you want.
Cost... I was told replacement value of mine when it was rebuild was $6500. All the HD parts and a ZF LSD. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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BDubVdub Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2006 Posts: 612
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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$6500??? Ouch! |
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thebooger Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2009 Posts: 71 Location: Guelph,Ontario
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Glenn,
What size tires do you run on the rear? And what kind of oil temps do you have when cruising at 80 mph? I assume you have an additional oil cooler with fan? |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76902 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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205/60-15 rear, 195/55-15 front.
Only the stock Type 1 oil cooler. Oil temps never exceed 210F.
Gauges reads 40* higher than actual. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Steve Arndt Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005 Posts: 1780 Location: Boise, Idaho
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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The reason I used the Porsche shifter when I wrote the install article hosted at aircooled.net and germanlook was to retain the spring loaded reverse/1st gear lock out. |
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