1969 Westy project

[Derek Cobb]

I just bought a 1969 Westy with a big motor. PO told me it had an 82mm Berg CW crank, 90.5 thick wall cylinders, stock heads and cam and dual carbs and manifolds from a type three. It has a simple extractor exhaust with dual QP's, a deep sump and full-flow oiling and a 009.
The thing runs great and has no trouble getting down the highway, and it pulls easily from a stop, but I have to wonder if the cam and heads are seriously limiting this engines full potential. Would heads and bigger carbs make a massive difference?
Also, I know the 009 is a bad compromise Distributer, but what would be a better choice for this set-up?
I was thinking ratio rockers (I really don't want to split the case), Kadrons and some mildly ported big valve heads.
This is a big, heavy Bus, and reliability and highway driving are my goals.
I'm just fishing for ideas on how to make this thing just exactly right.

[Jeff Geisen]

You say the bus gets down the highway well. and seems to make good torque. Probably a well built engine and may even run cool. Sounds like you are squared away engine wise.

I say leave well enough alone, ratio rockers require alot of set up and fiddling with pushrods to be done correctly.

Perhaps you could do brake work, re pack front wheel bearings or do other things the bus may need instead of spending time and money on an engine that is as you say doing a good job for you.

Just my humble two cents worth...
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I Corinthians 4: 1 thru 5

‘63 ragtop - ‘68 single cab

[taylorb1]

[Derek Cobb]

It does run cool. Maybe I'm just over-thinking this, it just seems like 2110cc's is a lot of displacement for stock heads and carbs, and I've just heard so many complaints about 009's I feel kinda dopey running one.
I don't believe in fixing things that aren't broken, but on the other hand, I really don't want to treat a thoroughbred like a mule.

[Lionhart94010]

If "reliability and highway driving are my goals.” And you say “It does run cool” then I strongly suggest you leave that engine alone… since stock T1 heads and cooling systems can only cool 40-50 worth of HP under continuous load; adding any HP parts to the engine is a waste of $ and time, what the PO did was move your peak torque to a lower rpm; i.e. “it pulls easily from a stop” …

IMO if you try to turn your engine into a “race horse”, it will break a leg in the second or third turn ;0)

What you already have in your engine is what most T1 powered T2 bus owners just dream about :0)
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Current VWs 71 T2 Westy SO-72/6(Miami), 71 Crew Cab, 2015 GSW TDI
Other owned VW’s 59, 68 1500s, 69 & 71 Bug’s; 72 & 73 S-Bug’s; 67 Westy, 67 Deluxe, Other 71 DC, 72 KG GT that now lives in Australia, 12 JSW TDI, 2015 GSW TDI, 2023 Tiguan
VW technical information sights
thesamba - www.ratwell.com - www.shoptalkforums.com/ - www.vw-resource.com - http://www.type2.com/
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/ - www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm

[SGKent]

no 2L air cooled engine runs cool at sea level unless special cooling shrouds are fabricated and a larger fan is used. You just think it runs cool. Tell it like it really is not how you percieve it or want to believe it is.

If you want to go faster drop a 350 chevy in it. Otherwise leave it alone.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Derek Cobb]

[Lionhart94010]

Derek, just an FYI. The case and oil can be relatively cool if you are just driving on level highway under 70 MPH with a deep sump…

The key temperature measurement is the exhaust valve and its seat, it is the limiting factor for HP on a type one head and can go from 350F to over 500F in a few seconds of high load driving, and especially during hot days while climbing hills or doing high speed driving with a full load…

At 550F aluminum gets brittle, so if you where to climb a mountain pass fully loaded with gear you could get in trouble very fast ;0)

IMO installing a Dakota Digital CHT would be a wise investment, Oil temp is also a good indicator normally but with a deep sump it may not be too accurate…

http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=...prd348.htm


also have 18ft cable kit !
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Current VWs 71 T2 Westy SO-72/6(Miami), 71 Crew Cab, 2015 GSW TDI
Other owned VW’s 59, 68 1500s, 69 & 71 Bug’s; 72 & 73 S-Bug’s; 67 Westy, 67 Deluxe, Other 71 DC, 72 KG GT that now lives in Australia, 12 JSW TDI, 2015 GSW TDI, 2023 Tiguan
VW technical information sights
thesamba - www.ratwell.com - www.shoptalkforums.com/ - www.vw-resource.com - http://www.type2.com/
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/ - www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm

[prowhistler]

Is your engine much wider than stock? If not you may have a 1776, plain and simple...

[Desertbusman]

You just bought it and think it is running cool? It's winter and it actually might not be running too hot. Where are you located? And wait until summer to really find out about it.
One of the biggest factors in how hot it runs is how you drive it. If you're new to busses that's for you to discover. Someone mentioned special cooling tins. I have no idea what that's about and am not aware of anything like that. However there are a few mods and things to tweek to improve the cooling.

So can we assume the fullflow is running a filter and cooler? As far as oil temp readings it totallly has to do with the temp sender location. If it's in the bottom of the deep sump down in the airflow the numbers are meaningless. If it's elsewhere it's still meaningless if you attempt to compare numbers with anyone else or anything you've heard. It's good for trending only. Get an appropriate meat thermometer for the dipstick hole or a dipstich warning light system like Berg used to sell. Then you might get good info on oil temp.

Since we know nothing about compression ratio and some of the other specifics there is not much else to say. Except that the more you build it to produce more HP the hotter it is going to get. Leave it alone for now and wait until hot weather to find out really where you're at.

the best way to monitor the overall engine and oil temp is learning how to read your oil pressure gauge. And CHT monitoring of the heads.
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71 Superbug
71 Westy

[Derek Cobb]

The engine was built with low compression ratio to safely run on regular gas. I am quite familiar with busses and their engines, but I've never had a "built" engine in a bus before.
I put about 30K miles on a 66 Delux micro with a 1600 DP, many thousands of miles on a 74 Westy with a relatively stock (header and progressive two barrel) Type 4, and a bunch of type 1's with various stock and mildly modified motors.
The motor in this bus shows no signs of having been hot or overheated, and the engine was built about 7 years ago. PO put about 20K miles on it and reported no problems. He was an honest guy, and was careful to point out any and all issues the bus had.
I'll keep my eye on the temperature and will consider getting a CHT gauge, but I think with the low CR and complete cooling system (thermostat and doghouse included) this bus won't have any overheating issues.
The purpose of this thread was to glean whether the combo of type three carbs, 009 distributer and stock heads would work well with the 2110 displacement. I've never run this combo, and I wanted opinions from those that have.
If you haven't run this combo, or one similar, you really don't have a lot to contribute here. If you have, I welcome your experiences and opinions.
Thanks Jeff for your professional opinion. You've given me just what I was looking for.

[stodge]

[Derek Cobb]

I figure I'll just keep all my engine stoff in this thread, so my next question is about the exhaust. Crrently it has a cheap, rusty EMPI dual quiet exhaust but it's days are numbered. The heater boxes were wrapped years ago and as a rssult those have become very rusty too. The current system is loud and leaky.
I'd like a system that is much quieter, will flow well with my current engine (2110, low compression, stock valves,stock cam, type three dual carbs).

Would a stock muffler and heater boxes be a bad choice on this big engine?
I'm certain it would be the quietest choice.

Remember, I'm looking for quiet, longevity, and good bottom end torque.
I don't need this thing to go much above 70 MPH, and I'm not drag racing anyone.

I'm also not really interested in input from the stock Nazi's. I
already know your opinions so repeating them in this thread is just annoying.

[borninabus]

whatever you choose will need to be 1 1/2" along w/ the heater boxes.

if you've got the funds the vintage speed muffler is one of the best I've used.
get the "lowered" one. the tail pipe tucks much more nicely.
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88 Van WBX, A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T - 2012 Touareg TDI Sport

[Derek Cobb]

I've looked at that Vintage Speed muffler a few times. Looks like a great system, but with a matched set of heater boxes it would push $1000.

I know, I know, pay for the best and cry once, cheap out and pay over and over. It would be very satisfying to have a stainless system that would never need to be replaced, and would seal positively, and would make horsepower, and would sound great.

I've reached a point in my VW building life that I need to start doing things with better quality materials, instead of trying to do things cheaply. I'm not a broke-ass kid anymore, and this Westy will eventually need to take me on a many thousands of miles international (Canada/USA/Mexico) journey.

I have to change gears inside my head. Quality. Longevity. Reliability.

Need to push "cheap" out of the equation.

[Danwvw]

That is a lot of stroke and fair displacement, certainly room for a lot more performance but if you do it ie. (Heads, Carbs) how long will the old bottom end hold up? Sounds like it would be a great engine to rebuild totally while it's still good, Then you could change the cam to something to match Heads and carburetors.
One of the things that is likely the biggest bottle neck to flow on type 1 engines is the stock heater boxes, I noticed the small dia. of this 74 beetle heater box and man it's little. The ID is something like 13/16" and the pipe walls are at least 1/4 inch thick.
I would be really happy with that good running engine, bet it's got a lot more torque than the 1641 and probably runs cooler climbing hills than mine too!
Put the stock exhaust on and let us know how that is. How is the MPG on your bus with the set-up you currently have?

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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[Derek Cobb]

I haven't put enough miles on it to get gas mileage figures yet,and I need to do some tuning on the carburetors to get them running properly. They are a little off right now.
There is a bit of an exhaust leak so I actually do need to do something right away.
That picture of the heaterbox looks like it might have had a "repair pipe" installed. They reduce the diameter of the pipe, but clean up the rusted area that keeps the donut gasket sealed.
I just cleared out my garage so I can start evaluating what I have in this engine. Oil pressure is really good and there is no perceptible end play so I suspect the bottom end is in good shape.
The weather here has been horrible everyday I've had off since I got this Bus. I'm in Florida on vacation right now, so it'll be at least another week before I can get back to work on it.

[Hal9000]

Sure you could power the engine up with free flowing heads, bigger carbs, and a wide open exhaust, BUT.

Doing that will also bias the powerband upwards and you'll pay a price in bottom end torque. With something like a bus, you'll put a lot more wear and tear on the clutch, and maybe not like the road manners in stop and go situations. Having a long stroke engine with restrictive heads and exhaust will probably give you more torque than any other setup you can find. I think a stock exhaust might be too restrictive (and would lead to higher head temps) but you should be able to get a nice quiet exhaust by choosing a good quality header and then having an exhaust shop build a custom tailpipe with a good quality muffler.

As I recall, the vintage 009's were pretty good (hence the popularity) then went to crap when the demand went up and they started being mass produced for the aftermarket industry. But there were a handful of older dizzy's that had the same timing curve without the built in retard on the #3 cylinder. I ran an 010 for a few years and was very happy with it... But if you're doing a lot of highway driving, find a good vacuum advance dizzy for better economy. I don't know the number but for a while I ran a combined vacuum/mechanical dizzy.

Regarding the whole temp thing. I grew up in Phoenix and my first car was a bug which I got with the stock 1200, then put an 1835 with about 10:1 compression in. I ran an oil temp gauge and a CHT gauge with two sending units on a switch so I could monitor both the #3 and #4 cylinders. I spent two summers tweaking the cooling system with external oil coolers, late model fans, adjustments to the cooling fins etc etc and I was able to get the engine to hold (on the highway in 110 deg summer temps) about 200-215F oil temp on a dipstick oil temp sender, and 425-450F head temp. That was extended cruising on the highway which is what seemed to heat things up the most in my case.... One summer I rebuilt the 1835 and for a few weeks I ran the stock 1200 again. In the same conditions it ran... 200-215F oil and 425-450F head temps.

VW's run hot. Even stock ones run hotter than oil manufacturers recommend without increasing their oil change interval. Any VW Can benefit from cooling upgrades, but like has been mentioned, the valve temp is the critical factor. If you DO get custom heads, I'd recommend against a fancy 3 angle valve job (especially on the exhaust). They minimize the contact area between the valve and the seat and will lead to higher valve temperatures.

[Amskeptic]

[williamM]

you are on a slippery slope when you alter the recommended seat cut. It is what it is because to much valve face can attract carbon deposits which can cause leakage and then you see some valve temps climb quickly till the carbon burns away and your off on the cycle again.
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!