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Type 3 Front Beam reconditioning guide
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Yabbadubbadoo
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:24 pm    Post subject: Type 3 Front Beam reconditioning guide Reply with quote

Hello there, I've been getting a lot of really cool info from this forum but I've yet to make a post. I figure now it's time to stop lurking and give a little back.

The dilemma I experienced and I'm sure I'm not alone here is that the front beam on a type 3 is rarely serviced or reconditioned. Main reason is the lack of replacement bushes, (extinct for a long time) and tools and knowhow to pull the bushes out.


Anyhow,
Serously, it was a right royal PITA trying to find bushes for my 66 fasty. Also, how do you remove the bush without a specific VW tool?

I think sometime in 1962 the bushes changed size. I'm not an expert on type three history so I'm stating my car is a 1966 model made in Australia. I'm pretty sure it contains the most common sizing of bushes and bearings which also happen to be the hardest to find replacements for. (go figure)

OK I'm gonna concentrate on the bushes here. The roller bearings are usually always re-usable (i've been told by a number of veedub mechanics) unless you damage them or if it wasn't completely dry of grease. Regardless, these can be found with some effort or buy used ones (Never, ever throw them out, you'll be surprised that you might be able to resurrect them if they feel a little gritty) and you'll remove them with a conventional bearing puller slide hammer. I can suggest at this point to leave it alone and concentrate on the inner bush first. I took my roller bearings out but I really didn't need to do it after all was said and done.

So when you disassemble your beam, If you notice any wear on your trailing arm shaft near the tip where the inner bush is, then you will defintitely need to replace the bush. I found myself here and toiled long and hard about what to do to fix it. I hate just throwing rare parts out or trying to cherry-pick another front beam of unknown origin and hoping it wasn't in a similar state of dis-repair.

Anyway I will post below a series of 4 videos. Please bare in mind, I was a total noob to beam reconditioning prior to working this out. I basically nutted all this out on the fly so it may not be perfect but it worked for me. I sourced these bushes.

INA brand Permaglide (TM) plain bearing commonly available at CBC bearings in Australia. I'm sure someone does these bearings in US or Europe.
code
PAP 3230 P10
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They have 1mm smaller than stock inner diameter (32mm actual) and Same Outside diameter as stock lower bushes (36mm actual).
Also they are same inner diameter as top bushes and most likely larger OD than the top bushes. (Something to bear in mind if you need to replace those). I would probably send it to a machinist to turn down the top inner bush OD to suit the bakelite bush ID if I were doing the top beam. Lucky for me I did not need to do it. My top beam bushes, like most peoples, was fine!

I also made my own bush-puller tool. It is similar to others described by people on the net and I basically made it with a hack saw, a drill and a lot of hand filing. Make sure the tool's stop-end which grabs hold of the bush is no bigger than 36mm diameter, the same size as the bush. I expect you would need to file a further 1mm off it if you were doing the top bushes so it makes sense to replace the bottom bushes first then modify the tool to suit the top bush OD otherwise you run the risk of damaging the outer bakelite support bush. (or make a second tool) I made a small variation in my design compared to those seen by other DIY jobs which you will notice in the video. Filing a small ledge into it to help locate. You will see. I clearly show it in the videos.

Lastly, My method involved re-surfacing the trailing arm shaft to suit the new bushes and also helped to resurface any wear up to .5mm deep.
Using a readily available bush ($14x2) and modifying the surface of the shaft ($75 x 2) turned out to be a viable solution. Also there's a chance you might salvage a trailing arm shaft that's a bit worn. My worn out trailing arm shaft turned out to be too far gone (wear was more than 0.5mm deep) so I replaced the arm before machining. The machinist (with a very big lathe) needed to make a dowel to hold the trailing arm from the outside end and use a 'live centre' turning technique to turn down the inner bush end by 1mm. It cost me $150 AUD to do this job on two trailing arms. A bit pricey but not unreasonable since he had to make the dowel and spent quite a bit of time setting up the job. The actual turning of the metal was the easiest part.

As I noted: The inside diameter of the new INA bush also fits the top arm shaft without machining the shaft. What you will likely have to do is turn down the OD of the bush itself by 1mm or ream the Bakelite but I did not need to replace the top bushes so I could not check the exact OD. I can only confirm the ID.

The last video installment shows you the bushes and insertion into the beam. Also the work done to the trailing arm by the machinist.

One final note on the Bakelite which I managed to keep intact:
I wondered: What if I had broken the Bakelite bush? What then? Well I did a lot of searching trying to find the correct stock bushes and came across this alternative and I think I would have tried this polymer bush material called Vesconite. Basically I would have made a full thickness one piece bush out of this product. http://www.vesconite.com/prod/mvbush.htm similar to what some companies do with Delrin. I think going by the specs that this product is a superior bush material to Delrin.

OK that's it. Sorry, I never said it was gonna be a short post. Wink


Link


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Link



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Last edited by Yabbadubbadoo on Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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sharkskinman
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats fantastic!!
maybe if there isnt too many random comments This Can Be Made into a Sticky...

i think we All will be watching this thread
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yabba,

Some really great ingenuity there. +2 vote on a stickey, I will be book marking it myself.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a lower/inner that was much worse... I smoothed it with a file and emery cloth, and reinstalled it. I've been worrying what to do if it develops play or noise, so I also vote for a sticky!

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post, thanks for posting the information.

I added it to the Type 3 FAQ last night.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
I had a lower/inner that was much worse... I smoothed it with a file and emery cloth, and reinstalled it. I've been worrying what to do if it develops play or noise, so I also vote for a sticky!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I bought some supposedly good arms as spares. there were much worse than that.

they are long gone to scrap metal, probably be washing machines soon.

I have 3 arms with no scoring so I will use them for sure.
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Yabbadubbadoo
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see I'm not alone in this. Cool that it has been put into the faq's. I'm happy if it might help some people and stop people throwing out relatively good beams because of a bush they can't replace.
Those score marks on the trailing arm pic look very familiar.
I did speak with a refinishing company that puts a ceramic metal coating on worn shafts and turns them down but the expense killed that idea. They mainly do it for very expensive hydraulic shafts for big machinery. The cost was pretty extreme. About $250-300 per shaft. I also wondered if it could be tig welded to build up the metal then turned down. That all seemed like too much cost and trouble so I gave in to buying a replacement lower trailing arm from a wrecker. I will not throw the old one out though. Someday I'll work out what to do to fix it.
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esde
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could have someone build up the worn area with spray arc weld, and then turn it back down on a lathe. You'll need a large or gap bed lathe to accommodate the swing of the arm but it can be done. I've resurrected several Unimog parts this way, they're possibly more scarce that type 3 parts!
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Yabbadubbadoo
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

esde wrote:
You could have someone build up the worn area with spray arc weld, and then turn it back down on a lathe. You'll need a large or gap bed lathe to accommodate the swing of the arm but it can be done. I've resurrected several Unimog parts this way, they're possibly more scarce that type 3 parts!


Sounds like a reasonable idea if you can get that done relatively cheap compared to replacing. I thought welding might be an option if I could not replace the arm.
The important concept to consider is that there are many ways to overcome these problems. I chose one particular method because it got the job done quicker for me with the resources and contacts I had but it would be fair to say that if welding is available to you then give it a go.

There's also the option of turning down slightly more material (only if the dsmaged surface is not scored too deep) and then making your own bush. I was going to do this if I was not able to find another trailing arm. The damaged area on my trailing arm was about. 0.65 deep. The max I could go was 0.5mm to suit the "off-the-shelf" bush I bought.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read through this post because I need to replace my inner bushing on the lower arm too. Great post with a lot of great info and how-to.

Do you think a 42mm OD x 32mm ID x 20mm Width needle bearing could be used instead of the bakelite plastic piece and INA permaglide bushing? I'm afraid that I might damage the bakelite bushing inside the beam when I remove the metal bushing. Figure if that happens, then I could just remove the bakelite and just install the needle bearing. Just a thought...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007D3TO0E/ref=ox...PDKIKX0DER

Only $26 for the needle bearing. All I would need to do is have the lower arm inners machined to 32mm's.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go for solid bronze bushes machined to suit your beam and arm shaft, also have grease grooves machined int he bushes.

the problem with needle rollers in this application is the repetitive movements causes fretting and eventual damages the shaft.

see this.

http://elephantracing.com/techtopic/rollerbearings.htm

I have seen this type of damage few times on type 3 arms.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

supersuk wrote:
I read through this post because I need to replace my inner bushing on the lower arm too. Great post with a lot of great info and how-to.

Do you think a 42mm OD x 32mm ID x 20mm Width needle bearing could be used instead of the bakelite plastic piece and INA permaglide bushing? I'm afraid that I might damage the bakelite bushing inside the beam when I remove the metal bushing. Figure if that happens, then I could just remove the bakelite and just install the needle bearing. Just a thought...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007D3TO0E/ref=ox...PDKIKX0DER

Only $26 for the needle bearing. All I would need to do is have the lower arm inners machined to 32mm's.


If you make your own bush removing tool like I did I recommend drawing a circle on paper with 37mm (EDIT should be 36mm) diameter. The metal stop-end of the tool should not exceed this diameter. Take your time ensuring this diameter is correct. Stay exactly to 36mm then file the step into it 1.5mm so it sits perfectly on the edge of the bush without biting into the bakelite. I'm fairly certain you wont damage the bakelite. but if you do then I'd do as vlad said and do it in bronze or some kinda self lubricating bushing material. Actually I was keen to try the engineering grade plastic I mentioned earlier in the thread. I can't see why roller bearings would be a bad idea for wear since they are used on the high load ends successfully. The fit would need to be tight press fit and I think you run the risk of damaging the bearing due to deformation during installation if it is too tight. For this reason I think the most failsafe is a bush.


Last edited by Yabbadubbadoo on Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yabbadubbadoo wrote:
supersuk wrote:
I read through this post because I need to replace my inner bushing on the lower arm too. Great post with a lot of great info and how-to.

Do you think a 42mm OD x 32mm ID x 20mm Width needle bearing could be used instead of the bakelite plastic piece and INA permaglide bushing? I'm afraid that I might damage the bakelite bushing inside the beam when I remove the metal bushing. Figure if that happens, then I could just remove the bakelite and just install the needle bearing. Just a thought...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007D3TO0E/ref=ox...PDKIKX0DER

Only $26 for the needle bearing. All I would need to do is have the lower arm inners machined to 32mm's.


If you make your own bush removing tool like I did I recommend drawing a circle on paper with 37mm diameter. The metal stop-end of the tool should not exceed this diameter. Take your time ensuring this diameter is correct. Stay under 37mm by a small amount if you have to then file the step into it 1.5mm so it sits perfectly on the edge of the bush without biting into the bakelite. I'm fairly certain you wont damage the bakelite. but if you do then I'd do as vlad said and do it in bronze or some kinda self lubricating bushing material. Actually I was keen to try the engineering grade plastic I mentioned earlier in the thread. I can't see why roller bearings would be a bad idea for wear since they are used on the high load ends successfully. The fit would need to be tight press fit and I think you run the risk of damaging the bearing due to deformation during installation if it is too tight. For this reason I think the most failsafe is a bush.


they do fret on the high load ends, tossed many arms like this.

but if you regularly clean and re lube the arms then they should last long time. Fretting is greatly increased with lack of lube and short suspension travel.
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supersuk
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh, I see. I never thought that needle bearings would cause fretting with small movements. Looks like either the bronze sleeve type bushings are the way to go.

I was able to find some steel backed PTFE/bronze sleeves that are 33mm x 37mm x 30mm for the bottom arms. I could use this and just ream out the bakelite bushing inside. Looks to be the cheapest option. You think the original bakelite can be reamed without breaking? I guess if it does, then I could have some delrin rings made to replace it. Now to make the tool to remove the damaged sleeve.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yab, thanks for letting us know about this method. I once had a machine shop make me new inners from bronze bushing stock. Can't remember exact cost, but it seemed reasonable at the time. Worked great and held up very well. As for the outers (my needle bearings were shot) I had the same shop make me similar bronze bushings for the outside. Unfortunately, they didn't last. Guess there's a good reason VW went to needles.

Those urethane bushings meant to replace the needle bearings on Type 1s also fit Type 3 upper outers. But the lowers are different.

I've also salvaged damaged arms by having molten metal sprayed and then machined down to size. Expensive? Don't know what that would cost today.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those metal sleeves are in the beam pretty damn good! I made the tool , but with 1/4" steel. While attempting to pull it out, the 1/4" steel bent! Unbelievable...I'm going to try make one out of 3/8" steel to see if it works this time.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can ream the bakelite, there is even a special VW factory tool for that. Sure its been posted here before at some point.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

supersuk wrote:
Those metal sleeves are in the beam pretty damn good! I made the tool , but with 1/4" steel. While attempting to pull it out, the 1/4" steel bent! Unbelievable...I'm going to try make one out of 3/8" steel to see if it works this time.


Dammit I just read my earlier response to your previous post and it looks like I made a typo and wrote 37mm OD for the tool when It should be 36mm OD. Sorry if that caused you a problem. Can you please check the OD of the tool?

But yes they are tight. I stripped the thread on the mild steel threaded rod doing mine. Should have used machine steel threaded rod.

There is another way to get em out if all else fails but you might try penetrating oil spray and let it soak in the vertical position overnight.

This might sound tedious but if your attempts to pull it out with a tool bomb out you might consider cutting the bush with a hacksaw blade opposite the split in the bush. A hacksaw blade on a makeshift handle might do the trick but it's a tedious #$%$ of a job. I met someone who did it this way but I chose to try my method first and it worked. When he had cut most of the way through the bush (without cutting into the bakelite) he levered it off the bakelite with a screwdriver. Seriously crappy job but if it works then you'll probably only have to do it once.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a problem Yabbadubbdoo. I'm just happy you posted this up so that we all know what it takes to remove this damn bushing!

I made the tool the correct size of 36mm OD. I think the problem was that I used junk steel that I had left over. I'm going to make a new one out of 3/8" steel with a 36mm OD and a 33mm OD washer welded to it. The washer shouldn't be a problem since the only job it does is help position the tool over the bushing.

I'll try that penetrating oil trick and hope that works. I was also thinking of using a slide hammer. The impacts it creates could help break the surface tension/press fit. I'll have everything rigid first before using the slide hammer so that I know i'm not digging into the bakelite piece.

Cross my fingers!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

have a look at these as well.

The SY series bearing sound ideal.

http://www.bsc.com.au/sites/default/files/products/manuals/Plain%20Bearings%20and%20Rod%20Ends.pdf
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