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How Hot Can A VW Air Cooled Engine get and still survive?
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808OvalGreasemonkey
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am running a 2110,in Hawaii temps,and run Valvoline ZR-1 50 weight oil,my temps are always 210-220,and after a freeway run I have pulled over immediately and saw 230. My car is also running aluminum case.
I think my temps are spot on and this engine has been a dream.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little Harry wrote:
[email protected] wrote:
Little Harry,

now that you got that part figured out (the REAL problem), you have to start playing with viscosity again. Try your 10-30 next change and see how it works out.

Do you know what size pump you have?

If your relief springs were soft, the cooler was being bypassed often, which is why the elevated oil temps (no oil through the cooler!). Please report back with oil temps on another cruise now that you have the problem figured out.


The pump I have is a schadek 26mm. The case is full flowed. The last three times I drove the car it was in the mid nineties outside. Everytime the oil temp reaches 210* and stays there. This is while driving at 60mph for twenty miles. The pressure at that temp is around 37psi at 3000 rpm.


I have a similar pump and oil pressures on my engine, Never replaced the relief's though! What I did is I used a little case sealer around the input holes on the oil pump to the case! Makes it draw the cold oil up really quickly and seems to help with oil pressure when hot too. My oil pressure stays above 20 PSI at an Idle when it's hot! At least it did with the straight 30w oil. Running 5W30 now Never get the light when the engine is running!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Other Dyno Don wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:
Oil should hit 212F so water burns off the oil


Old wives tail - think about it, do we need to see 212° days for rain puddles to disappear? No. 212° is the BOILING point of water, but water will evaporate at any temperature above freezing (32°F). The evaporation is the change from liquid to vapor and is dependent on many things including humidity, air temperature, temperature of the water etc. Basically it will start to evaporate any time the water is warmer than the surrounding air - so it's starts to evaporate from your motor as soon as the internals of the engine bring the oil with water contamination to a temperature higher than the surrounding air.


Motor oil and water are not as easy to separate as you might expect. Motor oil is very hygroscopic. It can absorb a lot of water. The emulsion that is formed is very difficult to separate. Generally the white sticky emulsion that you see in your engine was produced while the engine was hot but below 212. Oil will absorb moisture in most conditions until the oil is near 212. You generally need temps higher than boiling to separate and remove the water. It is not as simply as evaporation of a puddle.
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vwracerdave
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not just water that contaminates oil. There are many other acids and minerals that collect from condensation besides just water that must be boiled out of the oil.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the deffinition of servive varies more than my spelling.just because it runs dosent mean it survived. and just because it dosent run dosent mean it's dead.some of these things need to be fueled up at some point.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would define survive here as a "Live Long and Prosper" / "Live long and have power" Seems like most of the type 1 engines I look at these days dye because the crankshaft is getting loose in the bearings and the bearings loose in the case! Not sure if that has anything to do with oil temperature though, More likely Oil Pressure!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

more likely building procedures or lack thereof.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
more likely building procedures or lack thereof.


On top of what is a pretty questionable design. Crying or Very sad
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Jimmy111
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
I would define survive here as a "Live Long and Prosper" / "Live long and have power" Seems like most of the type 1 engines I look at these days dye because the crankshaft is getting loose in the bearings and the bearings loose in the case! Not sure if that has anything to do with oil temperature though, More likely Oil Pressure!


AS-41 and AS21 creep a lot. Even at room temperature they will creep.
If you heat it to 300F and push on it with a 1/2" round bar, you will put a depression in it. AS-41 becomes very soft when heated. One of the reasons it is not used at all anymore.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like the magic number not to go over is "boiling" then! 212' F. because it is going to be a temperature that will be a little difficult to raise above because of all the crud that has to evaporate out of the oil and the case! If the magnesium case bends with a crow bar at 300 then it's not a good idea to get anywhere near that!
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Little Harry
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been told by engine builders with a lot more experience than I will ever have that oil temperatures less than 235* are ok and nothing to worry about. But now we are told to stay below boiling. Then we are told to stay above boiling for an operating temperature to burn off condensation and contaminants. THEN, I read elsewhere that oil temperatures are relative and have a lot to do with outside conditions like ambient air temperature and humidity, and as long as the oil isn't above 250* don't worry about it. From what I have read thus far there doesn't seem to be any be all, end all conclusions.
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From my perspective vintage VW's are beyond being used for daily driver purposes. It would be best to have your car parked in a garage, and kept away from the elements on a daily basis. Zack


Uhhh...yeah...I disagree
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hell with what the engine builders say. You need to read what the oil companies say about their products and how to use them. Dyno oil starts to break down at 235*F. You can run 220-225 oil temps all day long and it won't damage the oil. 225* is not hot enough to change any metal structure of any part inside you engine. Oil must get hot enough to boil out water and other contaminants that collect from condensation every time the engine is run and then cools off. 212* oil temps is not too hot and will not hurt anything. Everybody needs to understand that 210-220 are normal oil temps. People confuse normal 180* water temps of a water cooled engine with oil temps of an aircooled VW engine. Oil temps are mostly related to RPM's. The higher you rev your engine the hotter the oil will get. When your dyno oil get above 235* you need to pull over and stop.

Synthetic oils can handle 250*-260*F.
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Little Harry
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Dave for clarifying. Not trying to "suck up" but yours is an opinion that I do value. When I read a thread a lot of times I look for your posts in an attempt to decipher through all of the bull. Thanks again, you have cleared up some confusion for me.
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Zack1978 wrote:
From my perspective vintage VW's are beyond being used for daily driver purposes. It would be best to have your car parked in a garage, and kept away from the elements on a daily basis. Zack


Uhhh...yeah...I disagree
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A certain amount of oil gets a lot hotter than 235°F or even 260°F as it moves through the engine. Any oil that lingers on undersides of the pistons or on some of the hotter parts of the heads is going to become much hotter. The additives packages begin to break down at lower temperatures than does the base oil stock, so to me it makes sense to run oils less dependent on additives to do their jobs. In my mind it is worth the price to run synthetic oils in these engines if for no other reason than the inside of the engine will stay a lot cleaner.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:14 pm    Post subject: Don't Drive your Air-Cooled Hard if it's over 85 Degrees Out Reply with quote

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/vw-normal-oil-temp.html
Here it states that VW Air-Cooled Engines are best if not driven to full load when it's over 85' F out, Saying Air-cooled Engines are more suited to cooler climates!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Don't Drive your Air-Cooled Hard if it's over 85 Degrees Reply with quote

Danwvw wrote:
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2006/11/vw-normal-oil-temp.html
Here it states that VW Air-Cooled Engines are best if not driven to full load when it's over 85' F out, Saying Air-cooled Engines are more suited to cooler climates!


How many VW do you find running in cooler climates compared with hotter ones? One of the biggest killers of air cooled VW engines is they don't get hot enough fast enough to have a long life in cooler climates.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point, I was just quoting the article! There pretty tough in warm climates! I have never driven across Nevada on I 80 on a 105' Day with the petal to the metal in a bug or a bus but sure have done it in Texas and Kansas where I think the humidity helps cool them more than out West.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have hit 130c/ 265F oil temperature twice with a 1641 T1 in my bus. Once at the end of a long hill on a motorway running at 65 mph and I suspect the thermostat wire jammed the flaps .. and another when I left covers on the air vents.
Between the first and the second incident I changed the heads but the cracks in the heads were there before running the high temperature. Two of the spark plugs were always stiff to unscrew (since buying the bus in 2010) as they turned out to have cracks in the head leading to the spark plug.
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Danwvw
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure of the exact conditions that crack heads? Mine were ok at 25000 miles but drove them again after re-installing them another 1200 miles then tore the engine down for a rebuild and the heads had cracked. All of my driving was here on the Oregon coast in outside air temperatures around 55 to 65 Degrees F.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwracerdave wrote:
The hell with what the engine builders say. You need to read what the oil companies say about their products and how to use them. Dyno oil starts to break down at 235*F. You can run 220-225 oil temps all day long and it won't damage the oil. 225* is not hot enough to change any metal structure of any part inside you engine. Oil must get hot enough to boil out water and other contaminants that collect from condensation every time the engine is run and then cools off. 212* oil temps is not too hot and will not hurt anything. Everybody needs to understand that 210-220 are normal oil temps. People confuse normal 180* water temps of a water cooled engine with oil temps of an aircooled VW engine. Oil temps are mostly related to RPM's. The higher you rev your engine the hotter the oil will get. When your dyno oil get above 235* you need to pull over and stop.

Synthetic oils can handle 250*-260*F.


So if the oil in the sump (where temperature is typically read)is at 212F, what temperature is the oil that is flowing thru the cylinder head who's metal surface is at 350F?

a sump temperature of less than 212F does NOT mean that the oil does not exceed 212F in places in the motor other than the sump.

If my sump temperature is 235F, I know some of the oil is already cooked at t temp way above 235F, someplace in the motor.

a sump temp of 180F is a nice target for me and my ride


Minerals can not be boiled out of the oil as has been reported.
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