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808OvalGreasemonkey Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2010 Posts: 763 Location: Oahu
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:11 am Post subject: |
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I am running a 2110,in Hawaii temps,and run Valvoline ZR-1 50 weight oil,my temps are always 210-220,and after a freeway run I have pulled over immediately and saw 230. My car is also running aluminum case.
I think my temps are spot on and this engine has been a dream. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Little Harry wrote: |
[email protected] wrote: |
Little Harry,
now that you got that part figured out (the REAL problem), you have to start playing with viscosity again. Try your 10-30 next change and see how it works out.
Do you know what size pump you have?
If your relief springs were soft, the cooler was being bypassed often, which is why the elevated oil temps (no oil through the cooler!). Please report back with oil temps on another cruise now that you have the problem figured out. |
The pump I have is a schadek 26mm. The case is full flowed. The last three times I drove the car it was in the mid nineties outside. Everytime the oil temp reaches 210* and stays there. This is while driving at 60mph for twenty miles. The pressure at that temp is around 37psi at 3000 rpm. |
I have a similar pump and oil pressures on my engine, Never replaced the relief's though! What I did is I used a little case sealer around the input holes on the oil pump to the case! Makes it draw the cold oil up really quickly and seems to help with oil pressure when hot too. My oil pressure stays above 20 PSI at an Idle when it's hot! At least it did with the straight 30w oil. Running 5W30 now Never get the light when the engine is running! _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:21 am Post subject: |
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The Other Dyno Don wrote: |
Bleyseng wrote: |
Oil should hit 212F so water burns off the oil |
Old wives tail - think about it, do we need to see 212° days for rain puddles to disappear? No. 212° is the BOILING point of water, but water will evaporate at any temperature above freezing (32°F). The evaporation is the change from liquid to vapor and is dependent on many things including humidity, air temperature, temperature of the water etc. Basically it will start to evaporate any time the water is warmer than the surrounding air - so it's starts to evaporate from your motor as soon as the internals of the engine bring the oil with water contamination to a temperature higher than the surrounding air. |
Motor oil and water are not as easy to separate as you might expect. Motor oil is very hygroscopic. It can absorb a lot of water. The emulsion that is formed is very difficult to separate. Generally the white sticky emulsion that you see in your engine was produced while the engine was hot but below 212. Oil will absorb moisture in most conditions until the oil is near 212. You generally need temps higher than boiling to separate and remove the water. It is not as simply as evaporation of a puddle. |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15278 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:42 am Post subject: |
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It is not just water that contaminates oil. There are many other acids and minerals that collect from condensation besides just water that must be boiled out of the oil. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:50 am Post subject: |
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the deffinition of servive varies more than my spelling.just because it runs dosent mean it survived. and just because it dosent run dosent mean it's dead.some of these things need to be fueled up at some point. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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I would define survive here as a "Live Long and Prosper" / "Live long and have power" Seems like most of the type 1 engines I look at these days dye because the crankshaft is getting loose in the bearings and the bearings loose in the case! Not sure if that has anything to do with oil temperature though, More likely Oil Pressure! _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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more likely building procedures or lack thereof. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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mark tucker wrote: |
more likely building procedures or lack thereof. |
On top of what is a pretty questionable design. |
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Jimmy111 Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 2643 Location: Wyoming
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Danwvw wrote: |
I would define survive here as a "Live Long and Prosper" / "Live long and have power" Seems like most of the type 1 engines I look at these days dye because the crankshaft is getting loose in the bearings and the bearings loose in the case! Not sure if that has anything to do with oil temperature though, More likely Oil Pressure! |
AS-41 and AS21 creep a lot. Even at room temperature they will creep.
If you heat it to 300F and push on it with a 1/2" round bar, you will put a depression in it. AS-41 becomes very soft when heated. One of the reasons it is not used at all anymore. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like the magic number not to go over is "boiling" then! 212' F. because it is going to be a temperature that will be a little difficult to raise above because of all the crud that has to evaporate out of the oil and the case! If the magnesium case bends with a crow bar at 300 then it's not a good idea to get anywhere near that! _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Little Harry Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2011 Posts: 340 Location: Marquez, Texas
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:51 am Post subject: |
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I have been told by engine builders with a lot more experience than I will ever have that oil temperatures less than 235* are ok and nothing to worry about. But now we are told to stay below boiling. Then we are told to stay above boiling for an operating temperature to burn off condensation and contaminants. THEN, I read elsewhere that oil temperatures are relative and have a lot to do with outside conditions like ambient air temperature and humidity, and as long as the oil isn't above 250* don't worry about it. From what I have read thus far there doesn't seem to be any be all, end all conclusions. _________________ 1973 VW Karmann Ghia - 1679cc, Kadrons, MoFoCo 041's, Tri-Mil Euro, Interstate Battery, and a little rust.
Zack1978 wrote: |
From my perspective vintage VW's are beyond being used for daily driver purposes. It would be best to have your car parked in a garage, and kept away from the elements on a daily basis. Zack |
Uhhh...yeah...I disagree |
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15278 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:07 am Post subject: |
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The hell with what the engine builders say. You need to read what the oil companies say about their products and how to use them. Dyno oil starts to break down at 235*F. You can run 220-225 oil temps all day long and it won't damage the oil. 225* is not hot enough to change any metal structure of any part inside you engine. Oil must get hot enough to boil out water and other contaminants that collect from condensation every time the engine is run and then cools off. 212* oil temps is not too hot and will not hurt anything. Everybody needs to understand that 210-220 are normal oil temps. People confuse normal 180* water temps of a water cooled engine with oil temps of an aircooled VW engine. Oil temps are mostly related to RPM's. The higher you rev your engine the hotter the oil will get. When your dyno oil get above 235* you need to pull over and stop.
Synthetic oils can handle 250*-260*F. _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Little Harry Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2011 Posts: 340 Location: Marquez, Texas
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Dave for clarifying. Not trying to "suck up" but yours is an opinion that I do value. When I read a thread a lot of times I look for your posts in an attempt to decipher through all of the bull. Thanks again, you have cleared up some confusion for me. _________________ 1973 VW Karmann Ghia - 1679cc, Kadrons, MoFoCo 041's, Tri-Mil Euro, Interstate Battery, and a little rust.
Zack1978 wrote: |
From my perspective vintage VW's are beyond being used for daily driver purposes. It would be best to have your car parked in a garage, and kept away from the elements on a daily basis. Zack |
Uhhh...yeah...I disagree |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:11 am Post subject: |
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A certain amount of oil gets a lot hotter than 235°F or even 260°F as it moves through the engine. Any oil that lingers on undersides of the pistons or on some of the hotter parts of the heads is going to become much hotter. The additives packages begin to break down at lower temperatures than does the base oil stock, so to me it makes sense to run oils less dependent on additives to do their jobs. In my mind it is worth the price to run synthetic oils in these engines if for no other reason than the inside of the engine will stay a lot cleaner. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Don't Drive your Air-Cooled Hard if it's over 85 Degrees |
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How many VW do you find running in cooler climates compared with hotter ones? One of the biggest killers of air cooled VW engines is they don't get hot enough fast enough to have a long life in cooler climates. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Good point, I was just quoting the article! There pretty tough in warm climates! I have never driven across Nevada on I 80 on a 105' Day with the petal to the metal in a bug or a bus but sure have done it in Texas and Kansas where I think the humidity helps cool them more than out West. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2714 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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I have hit 130c/ 265F oil temperature twice with a 1641 T1 in my bus. Once at the end of a long hill on a motorway running at 65 mph and I suspect the thermostat wire jammed the flaps .. and another when I left covers on the air vents.
Between the first and the second incident I changed the heads but the cracks in the heads were there before running the high temperature. Two of the spark plugs were always stiff to unscrew (since buying the bus in 2010) as they turned out to have cracks in the head leading to the spark plug. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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I am not sure of the exact conditions that crack heads? Mine were ok at 25000 miles but drove them again after re-installing them another 1200 miles then tore the engine down for a rebuild and the heads had cracked. All of my driving was here on the Oregon coast in outside air temperatures around 55 to 65 Degrees F. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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vwracerdave wrote: |
The hell with what the engine builders say. You need to read what the oil companies say about their products and how to use them. Dyno oil starts to break down at 235*F. You can run 220-225 oil temps all day long and it won't damage the oil. 225* is not hot enough to change any metal structure of any part inside you engine. Oil must get hot enough to boil out water and other contaminants that collect from condensation every time the engine is run and then cools off. 212* oil temps is not too hot and will not hurt anything. Everybody needs to understand that 210-220 are normal oil temps. People confuse normal 180* water temps of a water cooled engine with oil temps of an aircooled VW engine. Oil temps are mostly related to RPM's. The higher you rev your engine the hotter the oil will get. When your dyno oil get above 235* you need to pull over and stop.
Synthetic oils can handle 250*-260*F. |
So if the oil in the sump (where temperature is typically read)is at 212F, what temperature is the oil that is flowing thru the cylinder head who's metal surface is at 350F?
a sump temperature of less than 212F does NOT mean that the oil does not exceed 212F in places in the motor other than the sump.
If my sump temperature is 235F, I know some of the oil is already cooked at t temp way above 235F, someplace in the motor.
a sump temp of 180F is a nice target for me and my ride
Minerals can not be boiled out of the oil as has been reported. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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