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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:25 am Post subject: 64mm counterbalanced crank? |
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Is there anyone in Europe who supplies 'new' 64mm counterweighted cranks?
I know DPR and Wolfgang Int, can offer these, but being in the UK does not helps matters!
Any help would be appreciated |
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Dougy Dee Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2004 Posts: 1668 Location: Niagara Region, CANADA
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Try SCAT. They used to have them. |
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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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There cast and only rated to 5500rpm. I wouldn't touch cast cranks. VW used them first of all and kept braking them in testing so went for the the forged type for superior strength. |
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longboard511 Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2012 Posts: 133 Location: england
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AirCooledClassics Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2004 Posts: 294 Location: Saskatoon, Sk Canada
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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SCAT is one of the best crank makers in the world theyve made cast and forged cranks for the vw. check out nascar and nrha they are everywhere. Its true cast is qwicker wearing and when it fails it turns to powder, but on the otherhand Ive reved a cb cast crank to 8,000 regular for years and lived. But then some parts are made on wednesdays! _________________ 2010 Bonneville record holder Type 2, 36hp
NHRA Divisional Sports Compact Champion
My You-tube video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJoq3MtsPmc
My National Dragster article
http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=231552 |
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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Ah yes, thats better, but no 64mm |
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Mr. Motorhead Mad Scientist
Joined: January 06, 2004 Posts: 717 Location: Practitioner of 36hp alchemy
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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There are none and never have been any CW 64mm cranks of this type available. Take a nice 69mm forged piece and have it welded and offset ground the desired stroke (de-stroked). If you want to run 40hp rods, they would have to be narrowed by about 1mm to fit the journal. The whole operation would cost around $250-$300 plus the cost of whatever crank you find........it's a great way to recycle a forged crank with a journal that needs to be cut 75mm or more. I've done it in the past, works good. Just a thought......... _________________ 30 years experience in the sales of new and used auto parts!
36 horsepower parts for sale at http://www.aircooledresearch.com/
Or the new site at http://www.bugparts.com
Check out the Bonneville project:
http://aircooledresearch.com/docs/thebonnevilleproject.html#
"All limitations are self imposed."
Some Chinese guy |
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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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So, standard 64mm German forged cranks have not had counterweights welded to them.......... |
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Mr. Motorhead Mad Scientist
Joined: January 06, 2004 Posts: 717 Location: Practitioner of 36hp alchemy
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Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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We were talking about forged CW cranks (not welded) weren't we? You can take any stock crank and have it done as a welded CW piece, that is certainly nothing new. I'm not familiar with what is available to you......is there no one in Europe that can do the job (no crank grinders?)? _________________ 30 years experience in the sales of new and used auto parts!
36 horsepower parts for sale at http://www.aircooledresearch.com/
Or the new site at http://www.bugparts.com
Check out the Bonneville project:
http://aircooledresearch.com/docs/thebonnevilleproject.html#
"All limitations are self imposed."
Some Chinese guy |
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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, perhaps I did not made my question clear enough as I didn't even give a thought to a fully forged CW crank.
I haven't found anyone in the UK yet who does that sort of work, grinding cranks, yes but not welding weights on. I have found out that I can get a CW 64mm from DPR or Wolfgang Int, but the shipping puts me off. |
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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:28 am Post subject: |
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I have just had a long conversation with a local engine machine shop who have advised me that it is not worth 'suping up' the little 40hp engine, especially with the 64mm crank! He when on to say that the 3 bearing crank in inherently week and adding counter weights to it will not really help with the strength at high revs, due to the boxer engine layout. Now something doesnt ring true here as CW cranks are common on the larger stokes for high performance applications.
I also asked about line boring of the case and he said this was a very costly operation, especially for this type of case!
Have I just been blinded by a lot of machinist talk or is there some truth in it? |
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andy198712 Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2010 Posts: 1209 Location: Cornwall - UK
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:14 am Post subject: |
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hmmmmm the 64mm crank is weaker then the 69mm crank so were told....
but he doesnt sound that keen to do the work... try somehwere else like stateside tuning ect? _________________
Alstrup wrote: |
I like 5,5inchers in the rear at least. |
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Mr. Motorhead Mad Scientist
Joined: January 06, 2004 Posts: 717 Location: Practitioner of 36hp alchemy
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:39 am Post subject: |
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jasengine wrote: |
I have just had a long conversation with a local engine machine shop who have advised me that it is not worth 'suping up' the little 40hp engine, especially with the 64mm crank! He when on to say that the 3 bearing crank in inherently week and adding counter weights to it will not really help with the strength at high revs, due to the boxer engine layout. Now something doesnt ring true here as CW cranks are common on the larger stokes for high performance applications.
I also asked about line boring of the case and he said this was a very costly operation, especially for this type of case!
Have I just been blinded by a lot of machinist talk or is there some truth in it? |
Translation to street speak: The machine shop doesn't want to do it. They may not have the tooling needed, which BTW is the same tooling that is used on a 1600 case for a main tunnel bore (line bore). I've heard the same story here about "weak" 36hp and 40hp engines. Utter nonsense! It may also be uncharted territory for them into which the don't want to travel. _________________ 30 years experience in the sales of new and used auto parts!
36 horsepower parts for sale at http://www.aircooledresearch.com/
Or the new site at http://www.bugparts.com
Check out the Bonneville project:
http://aircooledresearch.com/docs/thebonnevilleproject.html#
"All limitations are self imposed."
Some Chinese guy |
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gimmesomeshelter Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2004 Posts: 1466 Location: San Carlos, CA
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Several years ago NLA Parts (a Porsche shop) had a 64mm crank listed for ~ 1000 USD. If you're serious about obtaining a new crank, call them and see if they can obtain one for you.
Cheers,
Paul _________________ "I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman |
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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:56 am Post subject: |
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andy198712 wrote: |
hmmmmm the 64mm crank is weaker then the 69mm crank so were told....
but he doesnt sound that keen to do the work... try somehwere else like stateside tuning ect? |
Strange thing is, he 'said' he gets work from vw Heritage! |
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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:00 am Post subject: |
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I just had a look at the stateside tuning web site....wow what a difference. Someone who knows what its all about |
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Beetspeed Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2004 Posts: 429 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:06 am Post subject: |
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andy198712 wrote: |
hmmmmm the 64mm crank is weaker then the 69mm crank so were told....
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Inherently, the 40hp 64mm is stronger as it has more main-rod overlap then a 69mm.
Due to the larger weights at the cheeks of the throws, the 69mm is better balanced and probably just because of that better balance, doesn't break at low revs, like some 64mm's reportedly/repeatedly do.
Easy solution: rev it some more
Thats my supported theory anyways
The 36hp 64mm with the smaller journals needs some help surely, but then thats what CW is for and there's always a WW 69.5mm crank _________________ '75 SB 1303 2,4ltr T4 turbo: 10.58 @ 129.9mph
'65 Ruska buggy 1192cc EFI 80hp N/A |
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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Well, it looks like a tossup between a DPR 64mm CW crank or a new vw Heritage 69mm CW. Thing is, I want to keep the engine width as close as possible to the 1192cc size. I'm thinking of using 85.5 p/c with the short rods and boring the small end to fit the 22mm bearing. I will be using 1500 SP heads. |
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stefi.g Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2005 Posts: 42 Location: Czech
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Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:04 am Post subject: Re: 64mm counterbalanced crank? |
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I have success with welded counterwights in std VW crankshaft 64mm....
I can weld and grind to everybody who wants....
jasengine wrote: |
Is there anyone in Europe who supplies 'new' 64mm counterweighted cranks?
I know DPR and Wolfgang Int, can offer these, but being in the UK does not helps matters!
Any help would be appreciated |
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jasengine Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012 Posts: 95 Location: Wales
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Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I have been doing a bit of research and it seems that the formula vee boys push the 'standard' 64mm crank to 7000rpm regularly with no problem. Its obviously got to be balanced with the rods, pistons, flywheel, pulley etc.
I read there is a speed record holder who has pushed a 65mm de-stroked 1500 crank, non-cw, to 9000rpm and stripped down to find no bearing wear. |
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