Type 3 Manx Long Travel Dual Sport

[Type3Manx]

Powdercoated the parts today. Prep took longer on some than the others but they all came out nice!

Pre bake

Paint Bake

Individual results

Time to assemble it all and get the trans and shafts back in so I can figure out where to mount the coilovers!

[Type3Manx]

Transmission installed with the newly powder coated 10 degree mounting kit and other related pieces. I mocked up the shafts to get an idea of where everything sits.

With stock torsion arms, rotated and resting against stops which have NOT been clearanced, and 3+3 arms... my type 2 CV shafts/conversion stub axles are already at 15 degrees. Something to consider for those running a type 1 CV at the hub, that's right at the breaking point if not just over it and that's without any grinding on the spring arm stops.

[GreasyCV]

Shes gonna be fun! Do your self a favor and double shear those outer pivots on the trailing arms. they are a great set up but Ive seen a couple break the bolt and it causes headaches and a thinning wallet.

[Type3Manx]

[ORANGECRUSHer]

Why am I asking myself what you mean by 'outer pivots' on a trailing arm??
The only pivoting point is the pocket at the horns. Please fill me in. lol
_________________
Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc

[Type3Manx]

[socal thing]

I know that sometimes these forums get a bad name for others just critizing what guys are working hard to do so I hope this comes off as helpful feedback ( the spirit in which it is intended) and not me being a jerk but, I don't think that second picture is a truly functioning double shear mount. It appears to be the same type of kit that you have however, I don't see where a load is carried by the head side of bolt. There is the possiblity that the round tubing welded to the plate on the head side of the bolt is sized correctly to make contact with the bolt head but that seems like a marginal idea. The head of the fastner isn't a great place to apply a shear load, as it is designed for a tensile load.
My understanding of the way the process correctly works is that the fastener is equally supported on both sides of the load allowing the shear load to be applied at half the force in two places instead of all the force in one place, here that load is caused through the heim joint for the trailing arm.
So as to not be a guy that offers critisim without solutions, it appears to me that this system would be functionaly more effective if the piece of tubing were removed and a bolt hole of the correct diameter to accept the trailing arm bolt was drilled in the plate steel instead.
However, in reality your are just taking that outside plate's load and carrying a quarter of it in each of the four smaller fastners. This setup looks more like a way to esnure the trailing arm bolt doesn't back out than anything.

[GreasyCV]

This is the correct way to double shear a bolt. can wait to see more pics of this build.

[Type3Manx]

[ORANGECRUSHer]

Sorry bout my stupid question. I'm allowed one a day I think. I was reading and just looking at the last picture which doesn't show the eliminators. I should know better since I have these myself. Musta been to lazy to scroll.

I still have to finger out how I want to double shear mine.
I actually like your take on the double shear and cotter pin since this also retains the bolt AND makes sure the head doesn't take a hit. Good find!
_________________
Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc

[socal thing]

[Type3Manx]

[Wingnut037]

Hurry up already, I want to go for a ride!

[Type3Manx]

Good progress today, I got the rear coilovers mounted up, setting the maximum droop and finally seeing where the ride height will be. Very satisfactory, made lots of adjust-ability in the upper mount in expectation of future changes.

Due to the difference in the 10 degree mounting position, I had to cut chop the old engine cage to start to work out how the new one will have to be designed. All good, it was rusty anyhow. My last one use the type 3 stock rear engine mount on each side as an additional solid mount support. I will have to cut those attachment points off and convert them to a urethane mount like the rest.

Now that this milestone is over, I finally have some clear direction on where all the additional chassis triangulation will both function and look the best. Lots of tubing bend/cut/spot welding to do before a final tear down and weld up of all the new parts. Then its back to fiberglassing all the changes into permanent and reinforced fixtures.

[Type3Manx]

Hacked the old engine cage back together as a short term solution to re-mounting with the 10 degree trans mount engine lift. Also mocking up a potential spot for the forged aluminum shaft highlift (1/2" the typical weight).

[bullnerd]

Take a look at the front shock setup on this bug compared to yours.

Is it possible your shocks are leaned over a bit too much?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579438

Gonna be cool when your done.

[Type3Manx]

If the dampening and spring rate were not adjustable then you would be correct. For instance you would not be able to get away with mounting at an angle like I have if you were using the cheap fixed EMPI coilovers. The springs would effectively be too soft and the chassis would sit on the ground, also the dampening would be a pogo stick and overheat. There are formulas you use when calculating spring rate that take into account travel, vehicle weight, and mounting geometry. These require spring rate and dampening adjustability in order to do it right.

The advantage of mounting straight up and down and as close to the wheel as possible (if space permits) is slight weight reduction of the coilover and minimizing heat generated from dampening. If you have a lot of weight to manage at the corners of the vehicle then mounting at an angle is much more difficult. Things like roll control come into play. With all the weight in the rear and almost nothing up front, a buggy has far more flexibility in design depending on your intended use. Due to the cv shafts, rear suspension travel is often far more limited than what can be build into the front. This can play a role in stabilization and /or destabilization of the weight management on the front. All things that need to be considered.

Installation angles aside for now, the farther inbound (away from the wheel) you mount the coilover (keeping it strait up and down) requires the spring rate be increased (hence the slight increase in weight) and similarly a change in dampening to match the increased spring pressure. The available springs for any given coilover are limited in how much spring rate a specific travel can accommodate before the spring will bind (coils become so large and close together they limit travel), so you have a specific range you must stay within. The same goes with dampening, you must remain within the cooling capability of the shock for the weight and cycles it is required to manage.

The angle of the coilover is also a variable you must account for in your spring rate formulas. Lets assume the bottom is at the wheel but the top is inbound about half the arm length, effectively splitting the difference between our first two scenarios above. The advantage to this is low installation height. There are limitations. As you pass 45 degrees you are met with obstacles that currently are extraordinarily difficult to overcome (spring rate vs travel vs dampening), so lets just say 45 degrees is the maximum angle you must stay under. While my shock angle may look extreme at a max of 42 degrees fully compressed, 28 degrees fully extended, and utilizing the entire 14" stroke, a lot of care is taken to mitigate the angle with all the other variables. Using an initial spring and a primary spring in conjunction with each other, separated by a divider with adjustable stops allows for one spring rate in the 28 degree range and a much stiffer in the 42 degree range of travel.

All of the formulas I've spoken of above including mounting angle can be found at just about every major coilover manufacturer online in the tech sections as well as on sites like race desert and pirate 4x4. If you are interested, there is also a spreadsheet I can share that helps plug in numbers and demystify the process. It's called "BillaVista Spring Rate Calculator", google it and try out the numbers for yourself.

As a real world example (numbers off the top of my head), if my shocks were mounted all the way outbound and upright, my spring rates would roughly be 250lbs over 250lbs, giving an initial of 125lbs and 250lbs after the divider stop. But due to my 40 degree angle I am running 450lbs over 650lbs. The resulting initial spring rate is somewhere around 275lbs until the divider hits the stop and jumps to 650lbs from the stop on as only the bottom spring is effectively in use. My dampening is a compromise between how much impact I plan to mitigate in the 650 range and what feels too stiff or generates too much heat when cycling at high speed.

[Mark33563]

What exhaust system are you running? Is it custom or just a regular run of the mill type I dual exhaust?

I have a bounty hunter buggy i am looking to swap the ugly type I engine for a a beautiful type III engine.

What did you do with respect to the oil dipstick setup?

Thanks for any info.

- Mark
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"That's an ultra-rare Dung Beetle... in reverse, it rolls up giant balls of crap. " - Dave24

[Type3Manx]