IDing a pre A 2pc case.

[jjjjack]

haha, yes, the upgrade that wasn't
_________________
Jack Stenner
1959 Mango Westfalia SO-23
1953 Porsche 356 Coupe
IG:j.stenner

[fcampbell356]

Would a SPG roller crank be in line for this? And I do have all of the tin for it.

Frank

[Unobtanium-inc]

Frank-
If you need an SPG crank, I have enough to sink a battleship!

[James Davies]

[savaden]

You are right. I think this difference applied up through 1957. After that they were the same, adopting the super sized ports for the normal as well, with the upgrade to the Zenith carburetors. But really there were a lot of subtle differences in heads throughout the years, and I think Harry Pellow's books are the best reference.

SV

[savaden]

[Tortie]

Unless there's some special parts book listings that I'm not aware of, (very possible mind you) the 55 parts book has only one part number for heads. I'd love for someone to ring in who has one of the earlier parts manuals and tell if it reflects different part numbers for normal and super heads.
_________________
Steve Harrison

[James Davies]

Steve, I just checked the '53 and '55 parts books.

1) The 1953 parts book has one head part number listed for all 1300 and 1500 motors:

502.04.022

But the '53 book is also known to be incomplete, as it doesn't separate out the differences of Supers, mostly because the idea of a Super was new for 1953. and the '53 parts book is really a '52 parts book, and rather hurriedly adds a couple diagrams for for 546 and 528 engines, but it's far from a complete listing of the changed parts for '53. Most diagrams in the book show '52 and earlier items. For instance, there's no parts listing for pistons for Super motors (589 and 528) which were different to achieve a higher compression ratio.

2) The 1955 parts book actually has two parts listed, but only one figure. Typical of these books I've found, which makes it very easy to miss! These parts are:

539.04.027 Normals
539.04.026 Supers

So there's a difference in heads. What that difference is brings us to 3)

3) Further evidence from the '55 parts book is that the 1300 Super and 1500 Super intake manifolds are different from each other and to the manifold for the 1300 and 1500 normal. The normals use a manifold that goes from circular head ports to 32mm carbs. The 1300 super goes from oval head ports to 32mm carbs. The 1500 super goes from oval head ports to 40mm carbs. Hence 3 different manifolds, as found in the parts book. If there was no different in the head ports between normal and supers, they would only need two different manifolds.

The kicker would be to open an unmolested early 2-piece Super and have a look. I know of a couple out there. I do know that the 528 intake manifolds are oval at the bottom, whereas the 546 ones are circular as shown in two snippets from the '55 parts book showing the 3 types of manifolds. I've labeled them.

[Tortie]

Hello James,

Strange,..my 55 parts book (Jan 55) shows two different part numbers for heads, but the difference is one is for the bare head, and the other is for a complete head ready to bolt on with valves, springs etc. The numbers are later numbers 616.104.032 and 616.104.002, and the real odd part is that both are listed as for all the engine types,...across the board.
Yes, I've seen all the funky carb, manifold, and linkage differences between the normal and the super,..even know that the super manifolds are welded steel as opposed to the cast aluminum for the normals,..something they don't tell you in the book.

I suspect that the parts book changed with the introduction of the "new" three piece case 546/2 for the 55 model year,...the only Pre A model with a three piece case. Could it be that the factory decided to "clean up" the parts book and just offer one style of head for every model, older cars included, because the "new" 1500 three piece case heads, (and subsequently all the heads thereafter) were ported well enough to cover both normal and older two piece supers? Dunno really, but it sure is an oddity. Fun stuff, thanks for posting.
_________________
Steve Harrison

[Jacks]

^^^ 2 piece and 3 piece heads are not interchangeable. Different stud hole locations
_________________
Jack Staggs
Actual name

[jjjjack]

Here's a pic of a pair of heads from P-40740, a '53 1500S. Definitely oval ports. Would be interesting, though still not conclusive, to examine whether the shape appears to have been attained manually (ground) or via casting.

_________________
Jack Stenner
1959 Mango Westfalia SO-23
1953 Porsche 356 Coupe
IG:j.stenner

[Tortie]

Yes, that would be nice to know. Wonder if anyone could ring in and tell if the two piece case super heads are ground or cast.
Ok,...so now it seems one might reasonably say that the super and normal heads were "different" on the two piece case motors,...and the same on three piece motors, but, as Jack pointed out, (and I had neglected to think through) that the two and three piece case heads aren't interchangeable anyway. This might also lead one to speculate about three part numbers being used, one for two piece normal, one for two piece super, and one for three piece, all. I do know that the three piece heads for normals and supers are the same, but maybe there's a gray area with the first three piece case in 55 where the transition was happening? Finding an original 55 super apart would be great to confirm.
Dunno really, but it's fun trivia to kick around.
_________________
Steve Harrison

[savaden]

One thing that I have found in the parts catalog here and there is that in certain cases it only lists the current replacement parts rather than the original parts. most of the time there will be a supercession listing but sometimes not. It may be that only the super head was available as a replacement part, such as later on when only 912 heads were available. I don't know that that is the answer here. The part number for the head assembly indicates 1600 /s in the comment line, with no corresponding part for 1600 /n, yet we know that 1600 /n heads existed, by their funny little round ports.

SV

[Tortie]

When did the Zenith's come on? I know there is a difference in head port size from the 32 pbic (found on the "new" 1600 in the A model for 56) and the zenith's. Was there overlap in when the 32's and the zenith's were available or was it a straight consecutive change over? Also, could it be that the super designated 40 solexes had the same port size as the later zeniths? (I know we're drifting now from the original Pre A focus of the thread...) What we need here is a comprehensive chart of real world observations filled in with the different port sizes, carbs/manifolds, and dates (if possible) that integrates with the info in the little spec book. Where is Dr. Johnson when you need him? We have found a new project for him, ha ha.
_________________
Steve Harrison

[James Davies]

Thanks for posting that photo Jack. It almost looks like the head on the left has oval ports and the one on the right has round. Of course, that may just be that the viewing angle is different. In fact, that's very likely.

Yes, I think Steve is right. 2-piece and '55 3-piece engines had slightly different normal and super heads, though it would be nice to compare them side-by-side. I'll do that for the 3-piece.

To muddy the waters, have a look at the PET parts book PDF ('59 and earlier) one can download from Porsche. They list the following numbers for heads:

502.04.021 - for engine types 506, 527, 546, 528
528.04.021 - for type 528
546.04.022 - for types 506, 546
539.04.022 - for types 527, 528

Confusing! For reference:

Type 506 = 1951-3 1300
Type 527 = 1951-2 1500
Type 528 = 1952-4 1500 Super
Type 546 = 1952-4 1500

And they make no mention of the 1300 Super heads.

[James Davies]

Steve, it's interesting that your '55 parts book shows 356A numbers 616.104.xxx. There are no 616.* part in my '55 parts book. The '55 3-piece engine cases were actually a different part number than the '56 ones.

539.01.001.10 - 1955 case for Type 546/2
616.01.001.10 - 1956 case for Type 616/1

I'll have to compare the two cases and see what casting differences there are, though I don't have an early 616/1 case, just a later one from '58, which may have been further different still.

[ensys]

It is my impression that:

- Normals and Supers always had different intake ports, at least thru the B.

- Early A Supers used the single-throat PICB. Zeniths were not deployed until the T2.

I welcome correction.

Mr.Campbell:

If Mr.Wright's fotos are your engine, you might want to re-evaluate.

- The rods are C/912. The case was likely clearanced on their account. Also, it would appear that you have an odd rod out, and a "beam holer" to boot. Given the probable operating stress level, it is unlikely that this will be a hazard, but be sure to check all the weights and balances carefully.

- Out on a limb; the cyl. look aftermarket and I'm not sure about the origins of the pistons.

- Given the parts, it seems not unreasonable to assume that someone needed a two-piece case motor and rebuilt one with some "enhancements" where they wouldn't show.

It'll be a nice two-piece when put back together.
_________________
Keep 'em flying...

S.J.Szabo

[fcampbell356]

Mr.Szabo:

I am sure that somewhere this motor was put together with as good of parts
at the time.

The rods have been balanced and match weighted along with the crankshaft

and flywheel. The pistons and cylinders are OEM as I don't recall any one

marketing such except thru Porsche, (I could be wrong) they have all of the

clear markings that I have seen on other pistons & cylinders. I hope to
have it running soon. Thanks for the comments.

Frank Campbell

[SplitPersonality]

Old topic back on top...

I have got a very similar engine to "Frank's" engine (pictured on page 1). The engine block clearly looks like a later 34HP VW case...(magnesium, big-style number emboss, etc) and has a late-50ies VW number.... but all parts are 356 and the block has all the 356-mods (oil-connections, etc).

Did "we" ever conclude on what is the true story on Frank's engine?

[James Davies]

I think this was common back in the 1950s. A Porsche engine expired, usually with a rod through the case. A widely-available VW case was acquired, machined and a new engine built around it with the remaining serviceable Porsche parts. The only thing to determine is what the internal parts are - which cylinders, pistons and heads does your VW case have?

There are lots of Porsche magnesium cases floating around, so you could always reunite your "top" end with a Porsche case if you so desired. In fact it's easier to find Porsche magnesium cases these days than to find complete heads in decent shape, so you're one step ahead of the curve.