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ia02
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2012
Posts: 71
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 Posted: Mon May 27, 2013 10:39 pm Post subject: Tin #25 |
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Can anyone share some info on tin #25 below? I understand it has something to do with the oil cooler but I am unsure of where specifically it is located and what it attaches to? Is it fitted to all years of type 3 (mine is a 71 square converted to dual carbs)?
I just disassembled my engine and don't remember removing that tin.
Does anyone have a photo of this tin? Does anyone have a spare they'd be willing to part with?
Thanks!!
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:27 am Post subject: |
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311 119 349 A
*Deflector plate -Oil cooler
from Eng. -No. 65746 to K 0 150 OOO/T 0 690 000
I've only seen them on older Type 3 (older than 66).
Not 100% sure what its real purpose is... |
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Tramsdisciple
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Joined: May 24, 2009
Posts: 109
Location: Cottage Grove, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:28 am Post subject: |
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They were used as an attempt to seal the cooler to the tin. I've only seen 3 in the years i played with type 3s
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=545985
03 passat
67 sunroof squareback
71 bay daycamper
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ia02
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| So, based on these replies is this tin something I should feel comfortable omitting? |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Tramsdisciple wrote: |
| They were used as an attempt to seal the cooler to the tin. I've only seen 3 in the years i played with type 3s |
I wouldn't have guessed that...
I've seen three in the last three years but probably because they're all "original to the car" engines.
| ia02 wrote: |
| So, based on these replies is this tin something I should feel comfortable omitting? |
Yes.
The part looks to end with the 69 model year based on the engine numbers that go with the part number so your later car wouldn't have it anyway. |
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ia02
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Is the tin shown in its correct orientation in the quoted diagram? It seems like the "deflector" part would hit the case when bolted on. Or would it spin/flip 180 degrees so that the "mounting tab" with the bolt holes faced towards the case and bolted to the cooler mount holes and the deflector faced towards the cylinder jugs? |
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ia02
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
| The part looks to end with the 69 model year based on the engine numbers that go with the part number so your later car wouldn't have it anyway. |
Great, thanks so much! |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| ia02 wrote: |
Is the tin shown in its correct orientation in the quoted diagram? It seems like the "deflector" part would hit the case when bolted on. Or would it spin/flip 180 degrees so that the "mounting tab" with the bolt holes faced towards the case and bolted to the cooler mount holes and the deflector faced towards the cylinder jugs? |
It's a tiny piece (maybe an inch high) and it fits just like it's shown in the drawing. |
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gtixpress
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Mahomet, IL
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:45 am Post subject: |
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My engine should have that little piece. I'll see if I can get a picture tonight (the motor is just a long block right now and not in the car).
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Joe P.
1969 VW Type 3 Squareback
2002 VW GTI 337 (Limited Edition)
2018 VW Atlas SE VR6 4Motion
2019 VW Beetle S Final Edition Convertible |
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ia02
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| gtixpress wrote: |
| My engine should have that little piece. I'll see if I can get a picture tonight (the motor is just a long block right now and not in the car). |
That would be great. I have seen this question asked several times and no one has really had an answer until now. Thanks in advance! |
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ataraxia
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Joined: March 19, 2010
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Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 5:53 am Post subject: |
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As installed on my 1500S motor. |
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gtixpress
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Joined: June 22, 2006
Posts: 283
Location: Mahomet, IL
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Well there you go. ^^^^ Unfortunately my motor was much more put together than I thought and all the tin was already installed. So it wasn't readily available.
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Joe P.
1969 VW Type 3 Squareback
2002 VW GTI 337 (Limited Edition)
2018 VW Atlas SE VR6 4Motion
2019 VW Beetle S Final Edition Convertible |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| gtixpress wrote: |
| my motor was much more put together than I thought and all the tin was already installed. |
I wish I had that *ahem* "problem"...  |
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ia02
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the photos!
It looks like the simplest answer is engines that used spacer washers under the oil cooler should have this tin installed (early cases with 8mm holes and early oil coolers with 8mm) .
Although my car is a 71, both the case and cooler have 8mm holes (probably not the original engine).
So, does anyone have a spare #25 deflector tin they'd be willing to part with? |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Good luck finding one...I've seen three like I mentioned and they were all on 'original to the car' engines. I've probably torn down 20 engines. I think a lot of them were tossed out during the 'rebuild' period. I know of at least two other people looking for one.
You might consider using the 10mm cooler and the adapter seals to eliminate the spacers and the tin piece. |
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ia02
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| ataraxia wrote: |
Good luck finding one...I've seen three like I mentioned and they were all on 'original to the car' engines. I've probably torn down 20 engines. I think a lot of them were tossed out during the 'rebuild' period. I know of at least two other people looking for one.
You might consider using the 10mm cooler and the adapter seals to eliminate the spacers and the tin piece. |
The interesting thing about this piece is that its only real function seems to be to prevent cooling air loss around the oil cooler. Changing the cooler to a late cooler makes it impossible to use because the flange on the deflector tin above the cooler mounting ears would be in the way and would restrict proper seal crush on the thinner seals. So, swapping a late cooler makes it OK to have this air loss? This seems like false logic to me.
I would think that the loss of air would be just as big an issue with either cooler. What makes more sense is that somewhere along the way VW decided that the deflector wasn't necessary and redesigned the whole cooler mounting system (thin 10mm seals with no spacer washers) to omit this piece. Perhaps the only reason they used thick seals and extra washers on the early engines was so that this deflector could be used.
So, with all that in mind maybe the deflector tin simply isn't necessary on any type 3 engine. Thoughts?
In the mean time I'll keep looking for one. Better to have what was originally fitted than make assumptions. |
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notchboy
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Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22463
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:35 am Post subject: |
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What you see with that tab is the factory fit product piece to do just what you guys are surmising. Keep it sealed.
But how many engines have it as well as the foam around the cooler? Not many for sure. Its an ignorance piece meaning you never knew about it, tromped on your marry way and never had a clue. And for all that your car didn't blow up.
So for extreme simplicity sake, you don't need it. I have at least three - two different style buried in storage somewhere.
I think its also a cross over piece for the uber early T1 cooler to known T3 type. The tin was a assembly line mod when this changeover took place. They may have kept it in place to 69 just because.
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| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
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1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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ia02
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2012
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| notchboy wrote: |
What you see with that tab is the factory fit product piece to do just what you guys are surmising. Keep it sealed.
But how many engines have it as well as the foam around the cooler? Not many for sure. Its an ignorance piece meaning you never knew about it, tromped on your marry way and never had a clue. And for all that your car didn't blow up.
So for extreme simplicity sake, you don't need it. I have at least three - two different style buried in storage somewhere.
I think its also a cross over piece for the uber early T1 cooler to known T3 type. The tin was a assembly line mod when this changeover took place. They may have kept it in place to 69 just because. |
Want to sell me one if you can dig it out of storage? |
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notchboy
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Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22463
Location: Escondido CA
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:26 am Post subject: |
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We've just determined here that its an uber rare unubtainium piece 
Its going to cost you now.
If I could find them, I'd probably give it to you.
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| t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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ataraxia
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 4504
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed May 29, 2013 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| ia02 wrote: |
| ataraxia wrote: |
Good luck finding one...I've seen three like I mentioned and they were all on 'original to the car' engines. I've probably torn down 20 engines. I think a lot of them were tossed out during the 'rebuild' period. I know of at least two other people looking for one.
You might consider using the 10mm cooler and the adapter seals to eliminate the spacers and the tin piece. |
The interesting thing about this piece is that its only real function seems to be to prevent cooling air loss around the oil cooler. Changing the cooler to a late cooler makes it impossible to use because the flange on the deflector tin above the cooler mounting ears would be in the way and would restrict proper seal crush on the thinner seals. So, swapping a late cooler makes it OK to have this air loss? This seems like false logic to me.
I would think that the loss of air would be just as big an issue with either cooler. What makes more sense is that somewhere along the way VW decided that the deflector wasn't necessary and redesigned the whole cooler mounting system (thin 10mm seals with no spacer washers) to omit this piece. Perhaps the only reason they used thick seals and extra washers on the early engines was so that this deflector could be used.
So, with all that in mind maybe the deflector tin simply isn't necessary on any type 3 engine. Thoughts?
In the mean time I'll keep looking for one. Better to have what was originally fitted than make assumptions. |
The air loss speculation, in the grand scheme of things, is so minimal that it hardly warrants concern. This isn't an 'air tight' cooling system by any stretch of the imagination. Having the tins installed correctly is a far larger issue.
You have to keep in mind that there are literally thousands of these motors in use. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that 99.9% of them don't have this piece installed and the engines run/cool just fine when the rest of the tin is installed properly.
It's your engine and your direction, obviously, but if it were me-knowing what I know about how little this piece actually does, I wouldn't let it hold up an engine build. Again, I don't know what you're doing or what stage you're at (and it's really none of my concern) and it's just my .02.
Here's hoping you have better luck finding that piece than the two people I know of who are also looking for it.  |
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