73 Rolling Creamsicle

[NewTechnicIan]

Hello Sambans...Sambanites? Sambians. That's it. Ian here.
I was thinking about getting a new project about a month ago when my buddy Dustin mentions Beetles. I mention that I've played with cars before but nothing much more than replacing spark plugs, changing tires and brakes, etc. and how I wanted to get better at cars.
I talked to Craig and he had a List that pointed me out to the suburbs of Burlington where I found what I consider a nice deal on a 73 beetle that needs some lovin'. There she is below.

Just nice. There was some real obvious rust to the frame but the PO happened to have an extra frame laying around too. Solid except for a the passenger's floor pan.

The Body
So I'll share some pictures here and then have questions at the bottom but I wanna know if it's worth saving the body or finding a new one.
Driver's side fender well, there's some rust on the front clip

Passenger side, it seems obvious the apron will need replaced, but it seems people do that all the time.

Driver's rear, this got to looking quite problematic when we started stripping the interior

From the inside

However, no Death Foam! And I'm looking pretty solid on the luggage tray and the hoods aren't rusty and the doors work perfectly, even the windows.

The PO told me the engine ran before he started taking it apart and then ran out of time to work on the car. Looked like this when I picked it up:

Which led to this (water sitting in the ports):

In any case I want to do a total overhaul of the thing so I'll know it runs like new when I start it up.

We got the engine dropped out by the end of the day along with stripping the interior. There was some water in the oil sump, but I think that was only from sitting under a tarp the last couple weeks.

Goals for next weekend: Taking the body off the frame. There's still all kinds of stuff to take off (glass, gas tank, wires, things I have no idea about yet), but I want to get it separated to look at what in the suspension needs replaced as well as what other parts of the body.

I have a few questions for the internet in general, as this next weekend approaches:
1. Is the body worth saving with the amount of rust on the running boards, apron and rear fender wells? I would be fine brushing up on my welding skills but if those areas are more trouble than they're worth...

2. How far should I take apart the engine block? The Haynes manual was saying it gets really expensive to take the whole crankcase apart, since there's some pressed gears on the camshaft, etc, but I want to break it down and build it back up again (definitely with the help of an engine shop)

[Juanito84]

I would suggest keeping the body, but I guess it depends on the time and/or money you want and can invest. Lots of time sanding, welding, filling, sanding and painting. Or lots of money having someone else do it. Or lots of money getting a good body unless you find a good deal. I personnally like fixing what I got unless I can get a good deal on another.

As far as the engine how much is a lot to you? Getting machine work is not all that expensive. Here where I'm at you'd be looking at some 70 dollars for a valve job, for an example. I've seen some online shops that charge as much as double. 100 bucks for hyperpeuretectic pistons AND cylinders! No need to get the cylinders rebored and honed! I say open up that engine and get it rebuilt! Of course if you do have someone else do all the assembly and inicial tolerances it will be rather quite expensive.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine?

[NewTechnicIan]

Awesome. I'm happy to step up my welding game, just didn't know if those rocker panels and lower wheel well bits were a pain.
There's a guy down in Lyndonville who has a whole bunch of parts so I'll have to pay him a visit and see what there is.

Ooo, I didn't know it was so cheap for pistons and cylinders. Where can I find those?
I'll definitely open it up, I just want the pride and knowledge that it's been taken apart and put back together clean so that I have peace of mind.
How tough is assembly and tolerances? If I get the right set of tools and feeler gauges, which I'll need eventually anyway, would I need much else? Special expensive tooly bits?
Thanks a bunch! Now I'm psyched for the weekend.

[NewTechnicIan]

OK, interesting question,
If you look back at the posts above, you'll see I got an extra frame for the bug. When I took the seats out of my current frame, I noticed that the seat holders are not the same as the new frame.

From my research, this seat hump is from a 73 and the sliding style that I have on the good frame is from 72 and before?

Questions:
I'm going to have to do some repair to the good frame anyway, can I just cut out the floorpan sections on the old frame that has the seat humps and replace the different seat mounts?
Does the frame look like it's old enough we might have a problem putting my 73 body onto it? The 73 I have was built in October 72 if that helps.

Thanks all! I just got the body detached this weekend and I just have to make some sawhorses to get this thing up where I can start doing body work!

[NewTechnicIan]

ALSO, ALSO....
I'm looking into what I'll need to replace on the body. Going to Wolfsburg's website, I see there's a few different pieces to order for the running board/heater channel area. If I get the full on heater channels (I definitely need them), do they come with everything I'll need or do I also need the bottom plate, running board fastening panel, etc?

Heater Channel
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111801045L
Running Board Fastening Panel
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111801045DX
Bottom Plate
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111801171C
Rocker Panel
http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=111801045DXX

[Ferguson]

did you get a title with the other pan? The title belongs to the pan of the car not the body
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(o)\!/(o) Proud owner of a 1972 Beetle, 72 Super Beetle, 76 convertible Beetle and a 69 Fastback
www.CCVW.org

[RLFD213]

I keep seeing a common theme from light blue beetles. Rust buckets. Mine is the same way for now. Good luck. It shouldn't be to bad to do all the work.

[NewTechnicIan]

@Ferguson: Interesting...I didn't get a title, however I bought the car as a "parts only" vehicle and you can't actually get a title on cars older than 15 years in Vermont, which makes sense because any car driving VT roads over 15 years probably ain't worth dick. Think that means I'm in the clear?

@RLFD213: The car's not so bad, at least the upper half doesn't need replaced Good luck on yours as well!

[Wolfgangdieter]

Sounds like you need to make a trip to the VT DMV to see how you register the vehicle for road use. Most states require a title that matches the VIN (Chassis #) to register and get plates. I'd get a bill of sale from the previous owner with the VIN # listed on it as that may help (especially if he had it registered and on the road in the past). You need to be aware that VW are stolen and resold to those unaware that they bought stolen property. IN FL they physically check title VIN against actual car VIN (and mileage).

Check out -
http://benboyle.com/blog/?p=16

Unless you can weld yourself - fixing rust is costly. Replacement panels aren't expensive but its labor intensive.
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CMC '57 Porsche Speedster Replica and Dolphin boat tailed full pan VW MOD-T Street Buggy

[NewTechnicIan]

Thanks Wolfgang, I definitely will. I hadn't known this whole VIN confusion. I'll go out and confirm the number on the chassis tomorrow and start the process. I still have the PO's number and email so I should be able to get a hold of him for a better bill of sale than what I have now.

In the meantime, can anyone comment on whether it's even an option to use the frame? From the searches I've been doing, I'm pretty sure I have a 73 bug and a 72 or earlier frame. Aside from the seats, are there big differences in the frame that will make this a headache?
The VIN off the frame would help, I know, I know haha I'll check it shortly.

[Wolfgangdieter]

No issues as long as both are IRS and from a bug (Karman Ghia's are wider in foot wells).
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CMC '57 Porsche Speedster Replica and Dolphin boat tailed full pan VW MOD-T Street Buggy

[NewTechnicIan]

Finally made it back out to the ranch to work on the bug. The goal was to get the bug off the frame, stripped, and ready for grinding.
A few things I found out while I was taking the car apart:
The car has the original speedometer/odometer! No telling how many times it's ticked over, though I just remembered there's some oil change stickers all over the car, perhaps I can do some digging.
I think someone bypassed the horn in the steering column, there was a pushbutton underneath the dash
There was, of course, more rust and bondo than I'd hoped... More opportunity to get great at welding!
My spare frame is from Feb. 1969, which it seems I will have an easy enough time swapping over the 73 onto it. I know both cars were never reported stolen so I should be good to work on them, too
There may well be enough usable frame bits on my current pans to swap the seat towers, channels, and extra metal into the better frame! Thank god, because shipping floor pans from anywhere to Vermont basically doubles the price

I had a few friends helping out, I have to give thanks to Dustin, Emily, Carol, Andy and Tim. Couldn't have gotten so much done without them all!

We managed to muscle the car into Dustin's shed, and realized that what I thought was a kinda solid frame and rusty heater channel was actually total crap on both counts and someone had spot welded the two together to limp her along for a while longer
We broke it free, as seen in this Classic Men Watching One Man Work moment:

The body is off the frame!

Of course then we realized we had enough time to grind it so we had to pick it up and carry it out to the yard rather than leave a mess in the shed
Turns out the frame's not as heavy as I expected, or maybe that's because I'm missing so much metal... I'd guess it at like 250, 300 lbs tops. Dustin and I could lift each end and carry it in and out of the shed while helpers moved the sawhorses
The lady friend wanted to get dirty so I handed her the wire wheel and she went to town on the fender

I got the other one

Obviously, when the car's apart and there's so much possibility before you (and work, and work, and work, I'm sure), one gets to thinking about how to set one's car apart. So I was thinking about my dad's '56 t-bird hardtop convertible...
Anyone ever do a hardtop convertible bug? Like take a standard, reinforce the heater channels, spend forever thinking of clever ways to peg the roof back into the body, add (some to) a lot of sheet metal to do it?
I did a search, and didn't get much so if anyone remembers a thread to point me to, that would be sweet.
I also started a thread on it in the body/paint section:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=562979

Last thing, I'm NOWHERE near doing it yet, but the wiring harness I pulled out looked way less organized and pretty than I'd like it to. I don't consider myself awesome at wiring but I'm a mechanical engineer and can use a multimeter, has anyone ever done totally awesome wiring, even if it gets more complicated?

Getting pumped, I'm starting to look around for good sheet metal to start the weld-tacular next couple months!

[Wolfgangdieter]

Vermont must like road salt. That's a lot of lower body rust! Have you ever considered an MGTD or Porsche Speedster replica? They use the pan frame, trans, engine, suspension and wheels - rest can be sold off.

Be sure to weld in some angle iron braces before you cut out more of the heater channel or you'll have a very difficult time aligning the doors. I'd be leery of cutting off the only solid metal you have trying to make it a convertible - unless you weld the doors shut (a la Dukes of Hazzard).
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CMC '57 Porsche Speedster Replica and Dolphin boat tailed full pan VW MOD-T Street Buggy

[NewTechnicIan]

Hey thanks for checking in again, Wolfgangdieter!
Yep, first priority is getting a welder and bracing the car before I make ANY cuts. I decided to do some grinding in the back because I had the grinder but no welder yet haha. After the thing is solid enough to be a normal bug again, that's when I'll start thinking seriously about whether to cut the top off.

And yes, Vermont loves its road salt. The car's also been registered in NJ and NH, possibly elsewhere. Gotta love the northeast, I'm betting anywhere else this would be the donor car

[RichG]

Have you worked out getting it registered yet? A lot of folks have put a lot of time and money into projects assuming that they will have no issue putting a plate on it when they are done, only to run into big hassles when the time comes. The smart move is to get all that sorted out BEFORE you invest a bunch of time and money. I realize it is way more fun to cut and weld, but You can really save a headache by doing the paperwork FIRST! Just sayin......

[NewTechnicIan]

Truth RichG,
I'm working on it, to be honest the reason it hasn't happened is that I travel for work and getting to a DMV on a weekday has been a PITA. It's right up there on my list, I have 2 more weeks of the road and then I'll be able to start answering whatever uncomfortable questions may be asked of me.
Thanks!
Ian

[djkeev]

Educate yourself about th level of design changes a Convertible undergoes to make a convertible in the factory! They always weigh mor at the end despite not having a steel roof.

Then educate yourself here on Beetes extra supports specifically.
You will come to see that while it can be done...... It's a royal PITA to do it properly.
Without adequate support....... The car folds in half when you open the doors!

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[dirthead O.G.]

[NewTechnicIan]

Hi Dave,
Yeah I started doing some research last night and it doesn't look too easy to make a standard into a convertible, but I was thinking HOPEFULLY this is the only time I'll ever have the car taken this far apart, so any changes now will be easier than any time in the future...
Then again the thing would be heavy as all get out if I had a convertible AND the metal roof, not to mention the bits'n'bobs it would take to attach it all.
I may be talking myself out of it, but I thought I'd ask the question.

Hey dirthead O.G.,
I still have the seats for my 73, though, and I was thinking about reupholstering those. Can I use the same seats on those older mounts?
I guess I hadn't thought about getting different seats, perhaps I'll look into it...

Thanks guys!
Ian

[plotch]

Do not worry about title, irrevelant. I have seats in my 75 that will fit the later pan. Cheap or did i miss something and you're going back to the earlier pan. Anyway i have stuff that could help. Please feel free to contact me.
Good luck, blinky.