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Sloride
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2002
Posts: 926
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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 Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| run that till your gauge shows 210. 215 is about as hot as you'll want to get the engine. I still think you are getting a bogus reading from your instrumentation. |
I'm with you skills, who knows how far his gauge is off. If you can get a hold of a heat gun that would be best. If not if you know what temp your thermostat opens you can watch for the needle to drop and record what temp it opened. This will give you a estimate of where your gauge is.
Could it be a trapped air pocket at the sensor?
Good Luck
Tcash |
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1977_L63H_P27
Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2006
Posts: 2345
Location: Bristol, Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| 1977_L63H_P27 wrote: |
I was planning to use a universal fan control available at any FLAPS. They zip tie to the radiator and are temperature adjustable.
Man I can't wait to do this swap!!  |
junk. don't do it. it's not true coolant temp. there is way better options |
I trust your judgement. Thanks!
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| busdaddy wrote: |
...and try a few chubby ones until you find one you like.
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1977 Westfalia P27 
you can't spell Volkswagen without SWAG
M-code Plate
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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don't think it's an air pocket, but rather his gauge is off. hard to tell. I hate trying to diag via a forum or over the phone. lets roll the dice
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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That's a good one.
Tcash |
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GeorgeL
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Back a page, but there is no such thing as negative resistance. Something is wonky with that multimeter. Address that before proceeding.
Best way to test the sensor is with the sensor out of the vehicle, in a pan of water on the stove. Put a decent thermometer in the water and heat it slowly, recording the resistances every 10 degrees or so. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 6:02 am Post subject: |
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| GeorgeL wrote: |
| Back a page, but there is no such thing as negative resistance.. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_resistance
that actually has some good diagrams in it with some nice animation. I don't just throw stuff out there to hear myself talk. I would agree, the meter could be a bit of an issue
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 7:00 am Post subject: |
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A couple thoughts on the fan issue:
I don't know tons about the Subaru cooling setup, but I've read some things that made me think that the flow is kind of wonky if not put together just right. I think others in this thread can comment better on this than I can. Just seems like this could be an issue with how the coolant is flowing past the sensor.
Have you actually shot the sensor housing with an IR gun to see what the actual temp is? Note, they read in an ever expanding cone shape the further away from the object is, so you'll need to be close (and probably move it around a little) to get an accurate read on just the temp sensor housing.
I know it was mentioned, but I want to second the question of is there any chance at all that there is an air bubble preventing the sensor?
Have you tried driving it and seeing if the fans eventually come on ? Or is this just sitting in the driveway?
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
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Nepenthe88
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2010
Posts: 1320
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Have you actually shot the sensor housing with an IR gun to see what the actual temp is? Note, they read in an ever expanding cone shape the further away from the object is, so you'll need to be close (and probably move it around a little) to get an accurate read on just the temp sensor housing. |
NOPE! So....This morning I went and bought a cheap-ish IR gun from HF to get a more accurate reading on the temp of the bus. Because it was from HF and I inherently don't trust it, I boiled some water, stuck a meat thermometer in the water and compared the temp of it and the IR gun. They were within 3*f, so I'll assume the gun is within a hundred million miles of being accurate.
It's a 78* day out today. The temp of the coolant manifold read 69.2*f, which also seems accurate as the engine side of the bus has been sitting in the shade all morning.
So far, so good.
I started the bus, let her warm up and then stretched her legs taking her up and down the street a handful of times. I'd get her up to 75mph and then hold her there, keeping the rev's up to keep the temp up. First, she sounds GREAT!! She drives great! And... I never had an overheating issue per the gauge.
At idle the gauge shows that she's right around 190*. Max temp when driving was 210*. Even maintaining the revs, she'd stay at 210* per the gauge. Funny thing was, as soon as I slowed down to get an IR temp off the manifold the temperature would plummet to 190*f. It would be at 190* before I could fully stop and unbuckle myself. By the time I got back there and measured the manifold just next to the temp sensor it would read 173*f (which means the gauge is off by 17-ish degrees). Fans were off. One time I jumped back there and the fans were spinning, but weren't ON. I assumed (probably incorrectly) that they were just still spinning from airflow past the radiator when driving, now I think the fans are cycling on and off quickly because the cooling system is working efficiently.
I filmed my last run. Look, I know it's a crappy video that shakes all over the place. I promise next time I'll use a tripod or something. If you're easily nauseous, just close your eyes and listen to the delightful sounds of a subee engine pushing a bus around with the noise pedal more or less on the floor. When the rev's level off, that's me cruising at 75mph in third gear  . Yay me!
She's obviously up to temp at this point as the gauge pretty much holds steady at 205-210*f. This time when I jumped out of the bus... THE FANS WERE ON!!!! WHOOO!!! Now, I wouldn't fully trust that temp of 161* at the end of the video. With the phone in my hand I can't be 100% sure I was measuring the coolant manifold and not some random hose down there. But regardless, who cares!? taking into account the 17*-ish difference between the gauge and IR gun on the coolant manifold, it means the bus was ACTUALLY somewhere in the 190-195*f range. That's perfect running temperature.
Link
I'm guessing the whole issue has to do with the length of the heater core lines I have running to the front of the bus. It's acting as a secondary radiator (even with the heater core fan off) and is dumping cool water into the main circulation, just enough to keep the water under fan temp. What I needed to do was REALLY get the thing up to temp, so that the heater core lines were fully flushed with HOT coolant. Only then will the temp sensor register temps hot enough to kick the fans on.
This is the second time the length of the heater core lines has thrown me for a loop. Last time I had an air bubble in there (they're difficult to bleed due to their relatively narrow inner lumen size) which caused me to overheat a bit. This time they're keeping the coolant below temp for longer than I expected. I guess that's the perils of doing an engine swap. Sometimes things are just different enough from stock to throw you for a loop. That and I was being uber conservative with the engine at the beginning because I damned well didn't need to blow up another. 
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: |
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adam~ been there done that. shit get's in your head and you tend to over think stuff. if jumping the test mode connectors put everything into fits and the fans were part of the ecu voodoo, I had to assume that your system was fine and just not hot enough to trip the fan(s).
glad you got it under control.
to any (future) swappers who want to go and say "ah ha! boy this is too much bullshit to deal with" well, yes and no. just do a OBD2 swap. this will give you REAL data that you can watch various PIDS on your screen.
obd1 is like the flintstones when it comes to being able to monitor even simple things, like tps, ect, ks, cam/crank correlation and so on.
the closest gauge I have ever found to be in line with the ecu is made by speedhut. they are within 2* of what the ecu sees. the fan controller is more in line with the ecu.
another issue is location. just because you see xxx* from the ecu, moving the sender even 2 inches away sways the reading.
again, congrats. now lets hope this on lasts you a couple minutes 
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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thebusandus
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2014
Posts: 412
Location: Alaska
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Just a question as I have essentially the same heater as you and I sometimes think I have a air bubble in the heater core area. How did you go about bleeding that? I have burped the system a few times with the rear as high as possible. My radiator routing is also a bit more complex with up and downs but with 10000 miles I would hope most of the air bubbles are out.
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2.2 Suby powered - 75 Westy - Rita
Panamerican Highway - 2014-2017 |
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Nepenthe88
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2010
Posts: 1320
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
adam~ been there done that. shit get's in your head and you tend to over think stuff.
...
to any (future) swappers who want to go and say "ah ha! boy this is too much bullshit to deal with" well, yes and no. just do a OBD2 swap.
...
again, congrats. now lets hope this on lasts you a couple minutes |
Yeah, I probably did overthink things a bit. But I was being cautious. I didn't want to push the temp up too high for fear of catastrophic failure. Regardless, this engine just feels better than the last one. Here's hoping she lasts a good long while (years, hopefully). Though, WHEN she fails, I'll drop a new longblock in her.
As for OBD1 v OBD2, you are 100% correct. Life would be a lot easier with an OBD2 diagnostic tool. Oh well.
| DiVo wrote: |
| Just a question as I have essentially the same heater as you and I sometimes think I have a air bubble in the heater core area. How did you go about bleeding that? |
Um. It was difficult to bleed out. Basically I just drove around and kept topping off coolant. Then one day my levels were real low and it was bled. To save from having the re-bleeding issues of those lines, I attached a pair of hose clamp pliers to the heater core lines down by the engine. That kept all the coolant in them, so that when I installed the new engine I didn't have the same issue. The setup was easy to bleed doing it this way.
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a Black & Blue Su-BUS-aroo
Follow my adventures in the GoWAND'RLoST bus on Instagram:
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| DiVo wrote: |
I sometimes think I have a air bubble in the heater core area.
If the heater is getting hot you do not have a air bubble. If it is not, raise the rear of the vehicle and disconnect the highest hose or fitting and fill with coolant until no air comes out. Hook hose back up and bleed system at rpm. |
Good Luck
Tcash |
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Stuartzickefoose
Samba Post Whore
Joined: February 07, 2008
Posts: 10350
Location: SoCal for now...
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| Posted: Sun May 10, 2015 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Bbt here comes adam!!!!
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Stuart Zickefoose
2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDi 6 speed manual
206-841-7324
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webwalker 
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2006
Posts: 2803
Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| Nepenthe88 wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
just do a OBD2 swap.
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As for OBD1 v OBD2, you are 100% correct. Life would be a lot easier with an OBD2 diagnostic tool. Oh well. |
I grabbed the very last of the SOHC EJ22 that was still OBD2. The good part is that I get the outlandish durability of the non-interference engines along with the easier maintenance of OBD2. OBD2 isn't a panacea: You can get a code thrown that is three steps away from a cascade effect that caused the situation. But it is better than Red Light == Doesn't Run. Or the blind choke-choke-choke down the road that has you rolling the parts-darts dice like Skills mentioned. OBD2 isn't a perfect system...but it was the first self diagnosing system that the car could carry around with it which included an interface that any Joe could read the codes from without having to...watch....blink...codes. Ugh, what a memory. (1985 Toyota MR2.)
M
_________________
"Consistent maintenance with quality products is the cheapest warranty you'll ever need."
1977 CE1 Transporter Deluxe, Subaru EJ22, Skills Cooling, Steedle HD 091 w/ GuardT .82 4th
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Last edited by webwalker on Tue May 12, 2015 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:52 am Post subject: |
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96 and newer are valve benders. I don't know why everyone is spooked by this...maintain your shit and enjoy life
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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GeorgeL
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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Are you using a Tom Sheil thermostat housing? It separates the heater core coolant from the manifold recirculation coolant so the manifold circulation can provide a clear signal to the thermostat. Otherwise the heater recirculation never gets hot enough to open the thermostat.
http://subaruvanagon.com/tom/Thermostat%20housingk.htm |
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Nepenthe88
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2010
Posts: 1320
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| GeorgeL wrote: |
Are you using a Tom Sheil thermostat housing? It separates the heater core coolant from the manifold recirculation coolant so the manifold circulation can provide a clear signal to the thermostat. Otherwise the heater recirculation never gets hot enough to open the thermostat.
http://subaruvanagon.com/tom/Thermostat%20housingk.htm |
I am. So while the Tom shield piece solves the thermostat issue, what I think is happening is relatively cooler water from the long heater core lines is being dumped into circulation above the thermostat which is keeping the coolant just under temp long enough to keep the fans from going on... That is until the heater core lines have been fully flushed with hot coolant. That's my guess anyway.
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Follow my adventures in the GoWAND'RLoST bus on Instagram:
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GeorgeL
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 9:25 am Post subject: |
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I thought that the purpose of the adapter is to have the heater line come after the thermostat so it wouldn't keep the thermostat closed.
As a test, you could pinch the heater line shut with a clamp and see if that helps the issue.
Subaru cooling is a bit of voodoo with that strange thermostat feedback setup. I've seen some just get a remote thermostat housing and put the thermostat at the engine water outlet like Nature intended.  |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 10:31 am Post subject: |
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The purpose is to dump it before the thermostat to keep it open. Long runs in the vanagon were keeping it closed and overheating when it was cold out due to the cold coolant from the core dumping back on it.
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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