2160 build, compression for 86B?

[esde]

I have just mocked up my 2160, and am figuring out my shim thickness to get the compression ratio that will work best for my engine. The combo is as follows
AS41 case, .20 over, full hoover modifications
CB 84mm crank, porsche journals std/ std
Carrillo 5.4 rods
old Mahle pistons in new AA cylinders
Grant rings
Webcam 86b on 106* centers
SLR lifters
Schadek 26mm pump
Mofoco 050 heads, dual springs
Bugpack 1:4 rockers
Dellorto 45's on match ported manifolds
set of old magnum straight gears
lightened flywheel
Empi 5lb steel pulley
cushlok disc with Kennedy 1700lb plate
Scat chromoly gland nut
Glenn 010 distributor
DFL on bearings and springs

I have been slowly gathering parts for this for almost two years now, the project has been pushed to the back burner and even off the stove a few times lately. But, it is finally back on the bench. The case got soda blasted one more time to clean up some oxidation from sitting, and I sent a nylon bore brush through all of the oil galleys. This is my first stroker engine build, though I've built and been through several standard 69mm stroke engines. The current 1835 has been built and changed a few times to get it where I'm happy enough, but I've always wanted a monster engine. So I just started picking up bits here and there, and reading/ asking questions as I went, and finally it's ready to start assembling.. I am wondering what opinions are on my compression ratio.
This will going into my 62 ragtop for weekend toy car/ country roads/ maybe some race time. I ran the #'s through this calculator
http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp
and came up with 9.8:1 static and 7.3:1 dynamic if I have .050 deck height and install the cam straight up.
What can I expect from that with 93 pump gas here? Pro's or cons of going closer to 9.5-9:1? The issue with lower compression is I either have to install the heads with more deck height, or ask Roy to enlarge the chambers from the 53cc they are now. I'd like to keep the deck at .050, but I don't have the experience to be sure about the compression ratio. I hope that some of you will help me out, how does this sound so far?

[modok]

[esde]

[esde]

Anyone else?

[66brm]

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Type-1-Camshaft-Grind-86B-1-4-or-1-5-p/00-102.htm

John says that 9-9.5 is where you want to be, I would think it'll be fine with a touch more
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Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval

[esde]

A few changes. I found that one rod was several thousandths shorter than the others, it was a rod that had some nicks and scrapes so I wasn't really excited about using it to begin with. I decided to look for another set of 5.4" carrillo rods, and keep one of mine as a spare. The set I bought ended up being 5.5 and the seller didn't want to refund my dough, even though it was his mistake. In the end, he forked over some extra money to make up for the thicker shims I'm going to need, and the rod set is beautiful, so I guess it was a win. Waiting on my main bearings which are getting an inside oil groove machined by SRP, then I can check the deck height again, and have it balanced again. One thing, I was checking the fit and weight of the CB lightweight wrist pins (110 grams as posted before) and realized that they have a larger inside diameter and won't fit the teflon buttons I was going to use. I have a set of bugpack "tru arc" clips, are they an ok clip to use?

[66brm]

Yep good clips, just make sure when you install them they go in the correct way, sharp edge sticking out
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Aust. RHD 66 Type 1
Aust. RHD 57 Type 1 Oval

[esde]

spent some time tonight checking weights and measurements. This rod set seems to have been barely run, if at all. The bushings are tight and hone marks seem fresh, and the rod sides, show no wear on 3 of them, on one it is very, very slight. My rod bearing clearance is .002 on #3 and #2, and .025 on #4 and #1. Side clearance seems too tight on some though. #3 is .010, #1 and #4 are .08, and #2 is .07. I've never run into this problem before so I'm not sure what clearance would be best, some say .010, some say larger. The rods still have a slightly grainy textured finish on the sides

I was considering sanding them with paper on my surface plate till the texture was down, that may get me a few thousandths. Sand one side so I can measure from the other to make sure I keep it straight, does that sound crazy?

[Arnolds64]

300 Duration and @.050 260. I am running an Engle 130 - 308 Adv. & @.050 267 and I am running 10.1 C/R. With those Rods why not go to .045 - .040. I H beams and am at .045. Those rods are probably balanced set and so I would not want to sand on them. I have had no problems and have probably 5000 miles or more on my 2017. I do have to run 91 octane but for the fun it is worth it. Does not run hot. Consulted a couple of gurus here - Shawn Proffit and Jim Ratto. Shawn suggested the Compression and Ratto going from 40mm Webers to 44's. The 45's you have will work great. That large of a cam needs them. I am running 36 vents/ 55 idles/ 200 Airs/ 155 mains. Works Great with very linear power in all rpm ranges. Runs like a stock VW till cruising around under 3000. ABove it rolls on to almost 7000 with power. I have just 043's 40 x35 heads that I have done tons Port Work myself on them. I hung with a C6 Vette Door to door from a launch to halfway through 3rd gear and then he just started to slowly pull on me. Pretty fast?
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64 Bug, White, 2017, Dual Weber 44's, Engle 130/Engle lifters, Home P&P'd 40X35 heads, CB 4340 nitrided crank, Eagle knock off H Beam 5.5" rods, Lowering Beam, Rancho Trans, Traction Bar. 225X60's rear, 145's front on Porsche Chrome Nipple Wheels.

[esde]

Got my grooved main bearings from SRP this morning, and got back to checking deck height with the new set of rods, and again ran into inconsistent measurements. I had the cylinder shims in, and should have been close to zero deck, but I was getting different measurements on different sides of the piston. After swapping some rods and pistons to eliminate some possibilities, I figured it out. Three of the damned Scat shims have a .008 variance in thickness as you go around them with a micrometer. What a crock of shit.
I only ordered them cause CB was out of the size I was after, and I'm eager to keep working on it. So, after scat gets back to me, and either takes them back or replaces them, is there an acceptable variance in thickness? I really wouldn't think so as it could lead to the heads leaking. So, one way or another I'll be waiting for mew shims from somewhere, in the meantime I'll prep and dfl coat the piston skirts and bearings. Probably a few other things, distributor drive, timing gears, maybe the rocker arms. I've considered the lifter bodies, not the head of course, but I'm still on the fence about that. Soon as I get any of it going together without issue, I'll post up some pics.

[modok]

Ideally, the lifter bores should be coated and the lifters finely polished.

Sounds impossible but on the other hand most wear is right at the cam side of the lifter bore........
but who knows, maybe it works OK backwards

I have a few sizes of scat shims cut from tubing, I check deck with those and then have rimco make the shims. Maybe scat's thinner shims have gone the way of bugpack? darn.

More than .0005 variance in thickness is very poor IMO

[esde]

Yeah, I considered DFL coating the bores and not the lifters, they say it's better to do the softer metal. Really, after the super anal cleaning my case has gone through, the idea of sandblasting the inside in prep for the coating makes me nauseous. I suppose I could tent the case and just expose the bores,like they do with patients for surgery. The plugs are still out so cleaning wouldn't be a total drag, but, it is aluminum oxide.
The scat shims do look like cut tube, but for the job they're intended to do, I'd expect them to be surface ground to a consistent thickness. As is for sure they would leak oil, and maybe cause combustion leaks. I wonder if they use this garbage in their own engines? Bleh, at least I know what to do to fix it, so it's not a big deal.
Those of you that told me to measure EVERYTHING, you weren't kidding.

[esde]

I used the one good shim, and checked deck height on all four pistons. I'm 2 or 3 thousandths out of the cylinder now with the 5.5 rod and shim. Going to have some .05 copper gaskets shipped with my heads and call it done.
recalculated the compression to reflect the change from 5.4 to 5.5 rods, and the slight change of deck height. Now I'm at 9.7 to 1 static and 7.26 to 1 dynamic.

[modok]

huh, well those shims used to ok, down the drain it goes.

So you'll blast the lifters? and then what polish them again? shoot man, you know the mag is porus material anyway, while the coating people may not have a lot of info on it, I bet you don't really need to blast it......just clean it.

[esde]

Nah, I'm not going to blast the lifters. They're far too pretty, and nicely polished as is. I've got the SLR and some CB lightweights here, and may choose the CB to save some weight. I think I'm going to give the bores a light sand by hand, and then shoot them and the bore for the distributor drive with DFL. I just have to find an oven big enough for the case to cure it, the toaster oven isn't going to cut it. I emailed scat, and imagine I will find out if this is a fluke set. They are (or are supposed to be) the .098 shims, pretty thick stuff. I'm not sure how they're made, I don't see any machining marks from cutting or grinding at all.

[esde]

I emailed scat and they called this afternoon, the Vw parts manager told me that .002 variation is their tolerance for the shims, and that they will send me a replacement set. Pretty decent for customer service I think, he said that they've not had shims returned for being that far out before, so maybe it was a one time thing

[modok]

Wow that's sad.
I have a surface grinder with magnetic table, but I don't use it because it usually ends up with around .0005 thickness variation.

What god awful piece of crap is SCAT using to make shims.

[esde]

Got the replacement shims from Scat, Tommy Lieb the sales manager told me he picked through the inventory to find me 4 that matched. Matched what I don't know.
Two of them are almost useable, with .002 variation in thickness around the circumference, the other 2 still grow .005 as you measure around the ring. I was sure it had to be me, so I walked them to a friends shop and had him double check. The high spot is very small too, not like there's an even ramp from high to low. More like a spot missed the grinder completely. Yes, total garbage and I can't even blame china. I am going to take the four closest shims to get surface ground tomorrow, and be done with it.

Checked the pump fit, with the case bolts slightly snug it just taps in, I think it will be fine. It's a 26mm schadek, I picked up a seward speed shop pump cover, it's pretty nice and checked out perfectly flat, and I have zero clearance without any gasket. Have to find the plug, but I did get the pump outlet tapped.

[Clatter]

Having everything the same and flat from case deck, to shims, to cylinder length, to head fly-cut is crucial.
AA cylinders? are they all the same length?
Square to the bore?
Round?
Not tapered?

If any of these numbers are wonky, your heads will leak.
Just general machining tolerances can make these numbers change.
be very wary of your deck from each side of the case.
A good practice is to _lightly_ deck the case equally on both sides.
Just enough to clean up.
Even on a brand-new case.
Do it and you'll see why I say this.
Another issue is that cases have had bad line-bore jobs from the factory too.
The last Brazilian mag "supercase" I had had the main bore over .002 undersize in spots.
The cam bearing bore was also under enough that the cam seized in the bore.
Many are line-boring both the main and cam bores right out of the box, for good measure.

ANy motor nice enough for coatings and Carillo rods should get a blueprinted case.
And heads that sit _flat_

So sad how much work has to be done these days just to get things near to where they were out of the box in the old days...
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[esde]

Clatter, yeah it is a shame how much needs to be done to just get things the way they should've been. In my madness to figure out what was wrong earlier, when I found the one mismatched rod, I did check deck height on all four cylinders. I used the same cylinder, piston, and rod, figuring this would show if the deck was off, or the line bore wasn't straight. Thankfully it all checked out even. I have measured and checked everything I am able to, and it seems that the case is just about perfect. The cylinders are AA, and they all are coming up the same as well. It's the damned shims, I finally got some nice micrometers for this build and they've paid off already, I figure that if I had just used the shims out of the package, I'd certainly be looking at oil and/or head leaks. I emailed scat again, but don't expect I'll hear back this time.. I wonder if the same guys make the crankshafts?