Stranded in Medford, Oregon

[campinpoptop]

I'll do my best to make this quick and to the point...

I have a fresh 2.0 F.I. with solid lifters from a well respected builder. I finished my full mechanical restoration this winter for a road trip from Sacramento to Seattle, which I am on now. The engine had around 1500 miles on it before our departure. After 500 mile break in, I changed oil and had fuel mixture set. At 1500 (right before trip) I changed oil again and adjusted lifters for the first time at .006 per builders recommendation.

Climbing the Siskiyou mtns from California to Oregon my motor died just 9 miles fom Ashland. So far the trip had been smooth with enging running great, head temps in check, lots of power.

Engine was struggling to start after the issue began, and would barrely get going then die imediately. I took a look in engine compartment for loose wires, grounds, Temp sensor, vacuum lines, and all the usual suspects. Noticed coil was leaking...

Drove into a shop that said they worked on TypeIV motors, which I beleived since I spoke to the owner before about his bus years back on a seperate trip. Rented a car went on with the family trip, and asked them to investigate and keep my posted.

Now back, I picked it up the bus with a new coil installed and note from mechanic that idle wasn't holding and it still needed a valve adjustment to fix this problem, which he didn't havee time to do. As I left the parking lot (after hours and no mechanic to talk with) the engine died, and the exact same problem is present.

I went ahead and started adjusting valves, and my #3 intake is stuck and not adjusting. I unscrewed as far as I could trying to see what slack could be obtained, and didn't really get anywhere. I can start it and keep running with foot on the gas pedal, but I'm in trouble as far as getting this thing home. It has a lot of lifter noise, and I'm wondering what if anything I can do other than pay for an enormous tow fee. Is there any way I can mess with it enough to drive this thing? ALSO....I haven't noticed any power loss on the flat hwy that I drove to my hotel??? My head is spinning right now, but shouldn't I be having an exhaust lifter issue instead of intake? Shouldn't I have power loss? Am I correct in this lifter issue would make it unable to idle? Last thing I want is to realize the idle problem is a seperate issue, but with all the other variables dialed in I can't imagine that is so.

Any andd all help is appreciated....Right now it looks like I'll be sending the family home tomorow in the rental car while I try to figure out my next move.

Steve
_________________
1978 Bay Window Stock F.I.
1970 Stock F.I. Squareback

[CoastalAirCooledVW]

Not sure what your issue is but if you are headed back down the 101 you are free to stop in and have a place to work on your bus. Have you called the engine builder?
_________________
1966 Velvet Green Standard

[busdaddy]

I'd like to hear a better full description of your valve adjustment procedure before offering any advice.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.

Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

Слава Україні!

[Danwvw]

I have heard the type 4's can drive a valve seat into the head which would cause this. It should not stop it although it might on a FI system.
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[Wildthings]

Are you running points? If so have you checked your points gap. If your didn't use cam lube or if the wear block just decided to break off then your points might be barely opening.

If your points are good, try removing one vacuum hose at a time from the plenum and throttle body, while blocking off the port it connects to. If you find a hose that once removed makes a big difference in how the engine idles, you may have found your problem.

What isn't adjusting on the #3 intake? Will the screw not turn or can you not get lash when you back the screw out?

[Desertbusman]

Ouch, hope you get it resolved. Sorry but I don't have any recommendations.

But all the talk about valves doesn't sound good. The initial history doesn't sound good unless you left out details of the initial engine run and break in. And it pretty much all has to do with getting the cam and lifters on the right path for a good life.
The normal good way is a high rpm (2K or so) for about 20 minutes immediatly at the very first fire up. That's to establish the initial mating wear pattern of the lifters to the cam. And then a valve adjust and oil change after that 20 minutes before it's ever driven. There will be a lot of almost microscopic wear particles, Then after 100 miles or so another valve adjust and oil. The initial break in will change the valve gaps and you want to keep checking them to determine that they have stabilized. If the 1500 mile valve adjust was the first time since startup then you would extpect them to be out of whack.

Not sure what "fresh" means. A rebuild? Just top end? or a complete rebuild? New cam and lifters or old ones?
_________________
71 Superbug
71 Westy

[campinpoptop]

My valve adjustment procedure is hand crank the engine to TDC for #1. 0 degrees on timing scale, visual confirmation of rotor pointing to notch on distributor body. Then adjust intake and exhaust both to .006. Then rotate 180 counterclockwise, so on and so fourth.

As far as not being able to adjust....I can't get a lash...

Thanks for all the quick replies.

Also....I'm running pertronix, but I have points/condensor with me if I need to use them.
_________________
1978 Bay Window Stock F.I.
1970 Stock F.I. Squareback

[campinpoptop]

[Wasted youth]

You say you can't get any lash on that valve...even after you backed out the adjuster all the way. This is something I am starting to see on my Type 4 1700cc engine on the No. 2 intake valve. It keeps getting a little bit longer every week, and so I have parked it for now.

I understand that is a possible symptom of a valve seat about to drop. Sounds like you are nearly there, or done. There are many opinions that these engines tend to do this more than Type 1 engines.

With your No.3 cylinder not getting correct intake air, or totally screwed compression, you could be suffering up to a 25% power loss. I suppose that could mean it will sort of run like shit/stall/die and crawl along on the flat land, and be grossly unhappy doing any real work.

If you can get to a FLAPS and get a cheap compression tester, you might be able to refute or verify this condition. If that's the case, you might be able to go and do what these things are famous for...change out that bad head with a different, better head in the hotel parking lot....and drive home.

Others are more knowledgeable than I, but that is my .02

[RocketSurgeon]

I've heard you can safely drive/limp home on three cylinders by removing the rockers and taking out the pushrods for the offending valve(s). Then disconecting the injector since its FI. That way you can get home at least.

Also, put the points back in and readjust. Although now with 3 cyl I can't say it will be easy.
_________________
69 Westy

[SGKent]

he called me this morning but we couldn't talk long as the call was garbled and I was on the way to a dr appt. We were able to determine:

The valve lash issue has gone away so it may have been on the wrong spot as sunken valves don't unsink. (He had too little clearance, not too much). He has a solid cam and Adrian built the heads so the problem is probably not in the heads.

The car won't idle well and from reading, the idle speed screw is unresponsive. The car appears to be fine otherwise if I understood the call. I suggested getting a can of Berrymans and using small sprays to look for Vacuum leaks. He also has an electronic ignition (Compufire) and will put in a set of points he carries if he doesn't find a vacuum leak. The call was at 8:30ish this morning and It is 12:30ish now so hopefully you will hear something from him later today. Medford is to far north for me to assist, 320 miles each way.

SK

[williamM]

AND- pulling pushrods on a T-4 may allow the lifter to escape out to the end of the push rod tube and dump oil pressure- don't know for sure but will check on my next build. SKent? any experience here?
_________________
some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[campinpoptop]

SO....I readjusted valves twice this morning just to make sure I got it correct. Everything seemed to be better at first since it at least started. (Although valves seem noisier than I ever remember). But then after I turned off it wouldn't start again. Got it going after waiting and cranking, waiting and cranking then did the Berrymans check for vacuum leaks and found no issue. As SGKent states I then switched out Compufire to points. It fired up, but the same issue came back. Turned off....and no start.

I am now back at the original shop with the original guy that first worked on it. They are going to try and look at it tonight. He says an initial vacuum test showed results bouncing all over the place which is what lead them to believe a valve adjustment or other "mechanical" issue is causing the problem. I guess they also did a vacuum leak check with butane that last time it was in and there were none.

I'm still in doubt about there being an issue with the heads, but the mechanic says vacuum all over the place always means somethings up with the mechanical aspect of the engine. I'm wondering if it's a voltage regulator or something else. Maybe I just forgot how to adjust valves, but I doubt it.

We'll see what happens. If indeed it requires heads to be pulled, I guess I'll just leave it here and rent a car to get home, and then have someone drive me back up next weekend. So frustrating!!!!
_________________
1978 Bay Window Stock F.I.
1970 Stock F.I. Squareback

[Wildthings]

How old is your gasoline? The crap they sell today doesn't age well and can cause the valves to hang up in the guides. That may be why your one valve wouldn't adjust at first and now does. Try something like MMO or Seafoam in your gas to clean up the valve stem a bit.

The idle issue could be bad gas as well that has gummed up a orifice or drilling somewhere in the carb.

[SGKent]

back to the basics

1. Check for spark. Ignition switches do go bad.
2. Check fuel pressure
3. Don't always trust mechanics especially when they are independent and know you are stranded. Look over the shoulder QUIETLY if they will let you. Simply pulling the coil wire and cranking it should tell you if you have even compression. You should get a RRR - RRR- RRR- RRR not a RRR - RRR - r- RRR . If compression is down on one cylinder it won't load the starter as much.

Even if one cylinder was bad that rarely causes the other 3 not to fire. Usually it'll make a racket. Common items like broken S-boot, stuck flap in the AFM, no fuel pressure or no spark will stop it from running. Also - if it was a California car when it was new and you did not clean out the fuel tank, a piece of the bird's beak could have fallen in and be blocking the fuel outlet intermittently. We've seen that. AeroMech found remnants of a rag or sock or something in a tank of a bus that was having issues. Gotta go - good luck.

[Danwvw]

I used to drive around an old 356 with a loose valve seat. Sometimes it would just lock up screech the back wheels. Then crank over and run fine for a few days. Other times it would knock like hell. Then it would be ok. At one point it started pounding the valve seat into the head and I lost the tappet clearance and had to finally pull the head for repairs.
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[Wasted youth]

I plead ignorance on this connection:

He says an initial vacuum test showed results bouncing all over the place...

AND

I'm wondering if it's a voltage regulator or something else...




Does this imply that a possible bad V/R is causing inconsistant supply voltage to the primary ignition circuit...giving rough ignition and so bad vacuum readings?

[TGOT]

sent a PM

[SGKent]

Some things that can cause goofy vacuum readings that one would not think to look at.

a bad catalytic converter

a bad brake booster

if the diaphragm in the PCV valve goes bad and the oil filler cap leaks or the valve covers leak air

a bad decel valve

a cracked S-boot where the crack is not yet obvious

a sticky valve, or one with a broken valve spring where the valve causes the pushrod to hop out of the center cup in the lifter. This could also cause a tight valve clearance that later goes away.

[campinpoptop]

Just to keep those interested in the loop on where I am at with this...

First off, thanks to everyone for the quick responses. I ended up renting a car and leaving it with a shop specializing in VW air-cooled for the past 25 years. Owner actually started working on VW's in Sacramento back in the 50's.

Bottom line is that my diagnostic senses were off with the stress of the traveling with family all waiting on me, limited tools, and parking lot work areas. My intent was to not personally invest time on the bus during the needed vacation, so I was really counting on the first shop that let me down. Taking SGKent's advice as well as my own led to them eventually referring me on to the correct shop that I should have started with. (We'll see right?)

Hopefully it is something simple that I overlooked. They will be taking a look at it Monday. I'll let you all know the outcome.

Lastly, Adrian called me yesterday and was really great as usual. His usual calm, patient, and informative self.

Steve
_________________
1978 Bay Window Stock F.I.
1970 Stock F.I. Squareback