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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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 Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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"Rubberized" products as reported by Derek Drew some time ago, are not ideal, will shrink, crack and dry out.
They also do not wick as well.
Mainly due to the need for more solvents to keep them suspended which flash quickly.
All but one undercoating, I use and recommend are non rubberized.
That one is a Wurth high build product used for very specific uses around my restores. |
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greebly
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Joined: August 27, 2009
Posts: 966
Location: Here and now
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Too funny. You had your chance to state exactly that about 15 posts back when I asked for SPECIFIC recommendation. At a grand total of $13.98. I do not think it will break me if it happens to crack in a couple of years, and it certainly is better protected than it was before application. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
My top products that get two thumbs up for ease of application, availability in a rattle can and duration of service:
Eastwood Heavy Duty Anti Rust
Eastwood Inner Cavity Protective Spray with Zinc
All Noxudol products.
Some are ECO friendly and will be a focus of mine in the near future.
WurthUSA under chassis protection sprays and cavity waxes.
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No "rubberized" products were mentioned.
I received an email earlier today asking why I suggested that you use a "rubberized" product.
Obviously a few have not read what I have written here or elsewhere.
No worries, enjoy your van. |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
As someone who has "improperly" applied an Eastwood product, I take full responsibility for the issue and do not feel the need to generalize about about a vendors product line.
I screwed up, but have now dialed in even more techniques and gained valuable insight from discussions with that vendor. |
Well I followed the Eastwood directions to the letter. the product, the rust converter was flawed, big time one of their technicians told me that. They had all kinds of problems. My only screw up was purchasing chemicals form Eastwood.
I ran tests, top coating immediatly , top coating after a day, no top coat, sanded metal, rusty metal, storage in a damp enviormentt, storage in a dry enviroment, everyhthing pointed to one thing. the acid that they use in the product will become active on exposure to moisture even after the product has dried. even in a non-damp climate the stuff fails if exposed. The only way this stuff could work is if it was applied in a dry atmosphere, allowed to cure in a dry atmosphere, and then top coated in a dry atmosphere.
if the top coat is ever scratched, the acid under it will become activated with moisture. the rust will then form and rapidly creep under the top coat. the acid is very aggressive.
Eastwood knew of the problem, yet kept selling it, in fact they kept advertising it in their catolog for months, at a discount price, then they totally changed the product. they sold crap that was junk and they knew it.
Then they never refunded me my money, instead they guy sent me four gallons of purple color paint stripper to strip my 356. I called him and asked how it would remove the rust converter that was under his chassis black, he told me the strip would only strip the chassis black top coat and he did not have anything to strip the rust converter under it. Great, I had to have the whole underside bead blasted. i still have four gallons of this paint stripper they sent me, I dont even know how to legally dump this shit.
then one of the Eastwwod staff told me , that he would send me $100 for my troubles when he read about my problems years later. time went by and finally he sent me a $100 credit for Eastwood!!! Ugh, where is the cash? he never told me it would be credit, just led me along like I was getting some cash, and heck that credit dont even cover the cost of the paint that I purchaed from them that was no good. If you count the labor, the bead blast bill, and all and it is up to about a thousand bucks in damages. I had two cars with ruined floor pans.
Eastwoods chemicals suck, they dont give a damn with customer service, they knowingly sell garbage chemicals, evidently to clear out all the bad stock. no refund for the chemicals, just the run around.
Now the Rustmort brand rust converter i have used many times, great stuff, does not cuase rust, I hate myself for falling for the temptation of buying from Eastwood.
the spray can Eastwood undercoating you mail order from Eastwood is likely inferior to name brand products, heck, you can do better with off brand undercoating at most auto parts stores. (and you save the shipping costs, get it right away, and most major autoparts stores will give refunds for defective products) Go to a real auto body paint store and you can get some of the best stuff.
Nothing magical about Eastwood, just a lot of cheap crap stuff in a fancy mailorder catolog. The only thing magical about Eastwood is the fairy dust they try to blow up our rears with all their sales hype. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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I have said nothing of promoting Eastwood converters here, elsewhere, anywhere.
The only converter I would endorse is Ospho.
BUT, one must have a plan of action for neutralizing the conversion.
Water works and chemicals are recommended.
I use steam and it works like a charm.
Again, read Derek Drew's postings, he has some insight for the conversion process as well.
FYI, I have had great success with the Eastwood converter and the secret to my success is UV light.
Yup, sun curing.
Also used industrially for ages now.
Many of the products that come with a UV warning, cure beautifully with with limited exposure to direct UV light.
IR lights are also used by many bodyshops to help cure products.
Sorry to hear you had a bad run of it. |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
I have said nothing of promoting Eastwood converters here, elsewhere, anywhere.
The only converter I would endorse is Ospho.
BUT, one must have a plan of action for neutralizing the conversion.
Water works and chemicals are recommended.
I use steam and it works like a charm.
Again, read Derek Drew's postings, he has some insight for the conversion process as well.
FYI, I have had great success with the Eastwood converter and the secret to my success is UV light.
Yup, sun curing.
Also used industrially for ages now.
Many of the products that come with a UV warning, cure beautifully with with limited exposure to direct UV light.
IR lights are also used by many bodyshops to help cure products.
Sorry to hear you had a bad run of it. |
Eastwood rust converter had no mention of UV curing in any of the instructions, but in my tests, I did do "sun cure" and there was still failure. I also used heat lamp and allowed one sample to cure inside over night. all failed.
as far as washing off the converter, that cant be done with EAstwood garbage. the film that is supposed to be left behind is not readily removed with water, only sanding or blasting was able to remove it. yes I tried a moist wipe down after cure, and all that did was promote rust. The stuff they sold cant be made non corrosive upon exposure to water. bare steel rusted slower than steel that had their rust converter applied per instructions. Eastwoods rust converter is a rust promoter.
Eastwood's rust converter was fatally flawed, they had numerous complaints on their own website about this product causing rust. They gave folks different anmwers on how to prevent this, none worked. their technician tol me they where having problems with this product. They contniued to sell this product for months after the fact (I got ads for this junk for month later i their stupid catalog) they ended up offering steep discounts on this crap produict just before they pulled it off the market, and replaced it with a new and improved chemical. basically they tried to cover thier loss and sell off the remaining bad chemicals. since they never refunded my purchase price, nor did anything about damages, they have nothing to loss by selling the junk that was worthless, that they knew damn well was worhtless.
Eastwood has no morals, has a horrible bussines method. They just stick you with garbage products and leave you to figure out how to fix it. they damn well knew that they were selling shit that dont work and causes damages.
Where is Mr. Eastwood now?
Did I mention their high temp manifold paint failed on a brand new bare metal manifold that i painted with their special high heat paint? the rustoleum rattle can at the hardware store of BBQ paint performs much better and at less cost and no waiting of rthe UPS man to deliver Eastwood's over priced junk products.
Where is Mr Eastwood now? does he care to refund my purchase price for this garbage sold to me? I wait and wait.
PS i worked in the UV coating industry for about 7 years. to be UV curable, you have to have the correct chemistry. Eastwood stuff was not UV curable. not to say it wont react to UV energy, but it wont be a cure. UV may harden it, but that is one step towards degregation if the product is not designed for UV curing. Since most UV energy sources also produce signifcant heat,it is very likey heat played a role in the cure rather than true UV curing. at anyrate the lack of UV exposure had nothing to do with Eastwood's total failure.
Top that off with no refund, and the continued sale of faulty products and you can see why Eastwood should be avoided for all products. |
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insyncro
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Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Get some Ospho and give it a try.
Again, sorry to hear about your issues.
Eastwood is the lowest tier of products that I use.
So many around here constantly complain about cost,
So I tailor my posts with products in this lower tier.
Pmails from readers and even moderators have questioned previous posts of mine with extremely high pricetags...so I dont waste the time any longer. |
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Surfy Murphy
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Joined: September 05, 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Brooklyn, New York
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| Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Man, I would love to get some help on this subject.
My van is prepped for paint and an undercoating. My painter is willing to use whatever I suggest but my head is spinning about what to tell him to coat the underside with.
The underside of the van has been power washed and wire wheeled and right now the goal is to cover anything on the chassis and wheel wells. I'll be removing the suspension parts, gas tank and transmission in another 6 months-year and can powder coat/paint the suspension and under the gas tank then. I sprayed eastwood rust inhibitor and chassis black over the suspension parts and wheel wells 18 months ago, and it was in good shape to begin with so basically the goal now is the chassis. Some of the eastwood stuff is flaking off the trailing arms but they're coming out next summer, so no big deal.
Here's what I'm thinking...
Option 1: Chassis Saver Black or por15 on any rust (one spot that's getting a patch welded in), coat underside and interior panels with Noxudol Sound dampening (apparently has some anti rust properties?) and noxudol thermal barrier inside and on underside followed by panel wax/under chassis wax. Bedliner strip around lower panel of van over paint for rock protection.
Option 2: Wurth version of option 1? I'll call them tomorrow to get their suggestions.
Option 3: chassis saver black, then Lizard skin for sounds and heat, then panel wax and under chassis wax?
I'm looking for any help refining a list and the sequence from the pros on here. I'm really interested in the best long term solution and don't have a lot of confidence that I'm going to pick the right product. Any ideas coming from some experience would be great. Thanks!
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Surfy Murphy
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Joined: September 05, 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Brooklyn, New York
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Happy Holidays!!
Well, seems like this thread is probably dead but I'm going to post an update on my undercoating dilemma anyway. I talked to Wurth and Noxodol today. They were both super helpful and the cost was pretty similar for all of the undercoating and sound/thermal sprays. In other words they're all f'n expensive!!
I decided on the Wurth SKS rock guard for the chassis undercoating. It's not paintable which is great, because then I won't be tempted to throw more money at the underside of the van. They do make a paintable version, but it's not as hard. They got me at "guaranteed for the lifetime of the vehicle",which to me sounds vaguely like forever and ever and ever.... Other reviewers online said they'd been using it for years, and Derek Drew wrote me to say go Wurth all the way so, decision made. The noxodol 1100 is guaranteed for 10 years, but they said they've tested it to 25 years. Also not bad.
I also ordered Wurth cavity wax and underbody wax for the other stuff attached to the bottom of the van like suspension parts and for the sunroof channels, seams, etc. I'll probably also spray some of that frame rail spray from eastwood before the wax. The only rust on the entire van was a clogged sunroof drain. I thought I was doing well clearing out the sunroof up top and it was blocked in the driver side wheel well, enough to make it rust pretty badly.
I also decided on the Lizardskin for the interior. The noxodol insulation might have been a little cheaper for their sound and heat insulator product but it was close to the same. The lizard skin was about $50 cheaper on amazon from Lizardskin than from other suppliers.
There's also another sound and thermal insulator called Al's that's cheaper than the Lizardskin but I didn't see as much up online about the product. It looks like a similar acrylic to the lizardskin.
I'll post some pics in a month or two when this part of the project is wrapping up for the lurkers like me.
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1987 Orly Blue Sunroof Syncro, EJ25 |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Surfy Murphy wrote: |
Man, I would love to get some help on this subject.
My van is prepped for paint and an undercoating. My painter is willing to use whatever I suggest but my head is spinning about what to tell him to coat the underside with.
The underside of the van has been power washed and wire wheeled and right now the goal is to cover anything on the chassis and wheel wells. I'll be removing the suspension parts, gas tank and transmission in another 6 months-year and can powder coat/paint the suspension and under the gas tank then. I sprayed eastwood rust inhibitor and chassis black over the suspension parts and wheel wells 18 months ago, and it was in good shape to begin with so basically the goal now is the chassis. Some of the eastwood stuff is flaking off the trailing arms but they're coming out next summer, so no big deal.
Here's what I'm thinking...
Option 1: Chassis Saver Black or por15 on any rust (one spot that's getting a patch welded in), coat underside and interior panels with Noxudol Sound dampening (apparently has some anti rust properties?) and noxudol thermal barrier inside and on underside followed by panel wax/under chassis wax. Bedliner strip around lower panel of van over paint for rock protection.
Option 2: Wurth version of option 1? I'll call them tomorrow to get their suggestions.
Option 3: chassis saver black, then Lizard skin for sounds and heat, then panel wax and under chassis wax?
I'm looking for any help refining a list and the sequence from the pros on here. I'm really interested in the best long term solution and don't have a lot of confidence that I'm going to pick the right product. Any ideas coming from some experience would be great. Thanks! |
Have your painter paint the van, even the underside, then apply the undercoat over the new paint. I really like the Wurth products, did a very good job on my 356 water clean up was very nice, nice tough good looking film. easy to apply, applied over paint. the paint was DuPont DP primer, a very good catalyzed primer. Seams were sealed with a quality flexible sealer (I think it was 3m product a urethane) after the primer, but before the Wurth. Seam sealer is VERY important. do not use undercoat in place of seam sealer. I repeat do NOT use undercoat in place of seam sealer. Undercoat is not a seam sealer.
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Phishman068
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specialev
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Joined: March 25, 2011
Posts: 281
Location: Mukilteo WA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:36 am Post subject: |
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I've used other stuff but this what I've done recently. For places where I had rust I did a phosphoric acid etch with either jasco, ospho and or the acid for the por15 system. Then painted on the por 15. Clean bare metal gets acid primer. I painted everything else with single stage hardened acrylic enamel.
Time will tell if I have paint adhesion problems. I try and do the prep work to death and usually have to stop myself from taking it too far. I think I overkill then I inevitably forget something anyways.
To get a good bond it's very important to scuff the paint between coats and wipe with solvent. This creates a higher energy surface for the paint to wet and adhere to.
My final undercoating will be polyurethane bedliner. I've used this on several cars and it seems to work great. Only problems I have are from me goofing something up in the base coat prep . Once again, everything needs a good scuff and cleaning before spraying the stuff on. I've used the raptor and restoration shop bedliner with the same shutz gun. All seems to work the same. |
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Terry Kay
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Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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If you HOT pressure wash the underside of the vehicle well, ( at least 3500 psi ) and allow it to dry well, Urethane Bedliner is the road to take.
I like & have used Raptor Bedliner on the bottom of my own Van 15 years ago.
The stuff has hung onto the wheel wells, A-arms, and the rest of the bottom of the van without failure.
Stuff works quite well, is very durable as long as you have the bottom of the Van squeaky clean prior to blowing it on.
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vanagonjr
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Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
| If you HOT pressure wash the underside of the vehicle well, ( at least 3500 psi ) and allow it to dry well, Urethane Bedliner is the road to take. |
OK, I'll ask a stupid question. Would a lift then be necessary to accomplish this?
I could have access to a lift, but I doubt they would want me to pressure wash a car in there. There is a place from my childhood, still around, with an outdoor lift under a roof - Always seemed a mystery to me in New England, but would be an ideal place for such a cleaning.
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insyncro
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Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I do my Hotsy powerwashing on an outdoor lift.
It makes a f'in' mess and most of what comes off the vehicle we do not want getting into the water table.
Having a plan how to collect it all and dispose of it properly is highly advised. |
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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If you have a lift you can use-- perfect.
I used the fork lift at work.
Made the job simple.
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specialev
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Joined: March 25, 2011
Posts: 281
Location: Mukilteo WA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:53 am Post subject: |
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A lift makes this work easier but it's not mandatory. I max out my four jack stands and just do it on the ground. Wear rubber boots, pants, and rain jacket. I'd probably wear the same if I was doing it on a lift.
A lift is a luxury tool. Another would be to have a tankless water heater available in the shop so you could have a neverending supply of hot water to blast your parts with. Another reason I need to run a natural gasline to my shop. |
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Surfy Murphy
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Joined: September 05, 2013
Posts: 139
Location: Brooklyn, New York
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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This has all been super helpful, thank you guys. I'm wondering how many of you would use some kind of primer before spraying on the SKS undercoating with no rust, vs just hot pressure wash the bejesus out of the bottom and just spray it on.
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specialev
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Location: Mukilteo WA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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You want both.
The cleaning gets rid of chemical contaminants like oil. That must be done.
The priming and abrasion gives a surface that the paint wants to stick to more energetically. In thermodynamics they say this is elevating the surface energy. The paint or coating will be fairly energetic when applied and will more easily wet an abraded surface. Prime if you have bare metal. You can omit sanding but you always get a better bond if you abrade first. |
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Pressure wash the snot out of the bottom of the Van.
Apply Urethane Bed Liner.
Be done with the project & it'll last for a long time to come.
I have no idea what SKS is or how it will hang onto the underside of the vehicle--travel at your own risk on this one.
I didn't prime squat--the Raptor seems to hang onto the bottom very well, nothing has loosened up or fallen off in an awfully long time.
I'm very happy with the results.
If your worried about this, sand the entire bottom with 80 , then blast whatever onto the surface--biter's are good, but your surely going to be making a big job out of this--not really necessary in my opinion.
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