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David Follett Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010 Posts: 99 Location: Media, PA
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:08 am Post subject: Ghia rear & front chin spoiler. |
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First time on the Forum. I recently purchased a '69 Ghia coupe. Is not and probably will not ba a shoiw car but it is a great driver. I'd like to do a few things to give it a track car look but not take too much away from the Ghia style.
Any help or knowledge about installing a rear spoiler, front chin spoiler and air scoops at the front of the rear quarter panels, just before the door opening, would be appreciated. |
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NOVA Airhead Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2005 Posts: 5221 Location: Richmond, VA
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Ghia rear & front chin spoiler. |
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David Follett wrote: |
First time on the Forum. I recently purchased a '69 Ghia coupe. Is not and probably will not ba a shoiw car but it is a great driver. I'd like to do a few things to give it a track car look but not take too much away from the Ghia style.
Any help or knowledge about installing a rear spoiler, front chin spoiler and air scoops at the front of the rear quarter panels, just before the door opening, would be appreciated. |
I can't understand why anyone would do this if the car does not have the goods to back up the looks. But its your car...
I would search the forums here. I am sure someone has done at least some of this. _________________ Ghia Owner Emeritus |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2904 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia rear & front chin spoiler. |
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NOVA Airhead wrote: |
David Follett wrote: |
First time on the Forum. I recently purchased a '69 Ghia coupe. Is not and probably will not ba a shoiw car but it is a great driver. I'd like to do a few things to give it a track car look but not take too much away from the Ghia style.
Any help or knowledge about installing a rear spoiler, front chin spoiler and air scoops at the front of the rear quarter panels, just before the door opening, would be appreciated. |
I can't understand why anyone would do this if the car does not have the goods to back up the looks. But its your car...
I would search the forums here. I am sure someone has done at least some of this. |
There are a few, and you could always copy the Dacon Racing team... just don't get your ideas from the VW abortion thread!
Seriously though, the most valuable part of a Ghia is the body, and once that gets hacked the car value goes out the door. And, 69 is considered to be the most desirable late model Ghia by many people. The original Ghia was designed using a wind tunnel and is known to be good for up to 160 mph with no handling issues, so the aero mods are not really necessary for a performance street car. As a friend, let me warn you that, with a stock looking Ghia, people will smile and wave and ask questions. The minute you start adding scoops and stickers, the whole attitude towards the car changes and you get people that want to challenge you or show off. If you have something to back up the looks, then you will earn respect. If you have all the looks and still take all day to get to 70, then you will earn laughter.
Paul |
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sactojesse Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2006 Posts: 2655 Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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^
Agreed. A '69 has the small bumpers, small taillights, but is the first year of the independent rear suspension. Plus, it came stock with front disc brakes. IMO, resto-custom is where it's at. Keep the looks simple and clean. Retain the stock chrome trim on the sides. Lower it slightly, but keep the stock width front beam. Wider wheels and tires. Add a larger front sway bar and a rear sway bar. Build yourself a nice high performance engine. Pro street transmission. The sky's the limit, but keep the body essentially stock in form. Color change is fine. I would get rid of the stock fake woodgrain vinyl dash, fill the holes, and paint the dash body color though. _________________ 1966 Karmann-Ghia convertible |
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spectre6000 Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2009 Posts: 2014 Location: Broomfield, CO
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Don't let the naysayers discourage you. There's a thread or two on STF for this sort of stuff. More engineering/open-minded over there. There have been a number of Ghias used (successfully) as race cars. I will likely do one myself one of these days. They're perfect for racing! _________________ Jason Hopper
-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me |
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David Follett Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010 Posts: 99 Location: Media, PA
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Great site. Thanks for all the replays both pro & con. This is my 3 rd Ghia in 43 yrs with VW service. No gonna mess it up but want something a little different. |
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retrowagen Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004 Posts: 1856
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Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia rear & front chin spoiler. |
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Altema wrote: |
The original Ghia was designed using a wind tunnel and is known to be good for up to 160 mph with no handling issues, |
Actually, no, it was simply penned by Ghia using some style templates thay already had. The only wind tunnel in the vicinity at the time was at the technical university in Turin, but Ghia didn't use it.
Some of the newer modified Type 14's (thinking of Jochen Bader's Porsche-powered specimen, in particular) is probably one of the few (non-Drag) Ghias capable of nearly 150 mph, and, according to a friend who was given a ride in it on unlimited Autobahn up to approximately 140 mph, above 110 mph or so, even with its chin spoiler, wide tires, and Porsche 911 suspension, it was rather sketchy and had lots of lift. _________________ David Ruby
President, Karmann-Ghia World Club |
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Greezy Joe Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2010 Posts: 1534 Location: Crawfordville, Fl
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Something like this I like it. Could be photo shopped but cool. But better have the GO to go to the Show
_________________ Current:74 Ghia Coupe w/ 2276
71 Ghia Vert w/ 1835
07 GMC Truck
12 Jeep Wrangler
73 Harley FLH 93 cid
89 Harley 883 Sportster (1200)
Owned before: 58, 69 Ghia Coupes, 64 Canvas Sunroof, 68, 72, 73, & 74 Bugs, 63 Single Cab, 65 Bus, 66 & 70 Camper
" Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it'll muffle the sound". |
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spectre6000 Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2009 Posts: 2014 Location: Broomfield, CO
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:15 am Post subject: |
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There's a thread on STF (and maybe duplicated here) about wool tuft testing a ghia. The tests haven't been completed yet, but I just got my '57 Ghia up here for testing an early model (it needs some mechanical and electrical attention before I can do said tests), and Jeromerino has a 60s model for testing a later. I've been out of the scene up here, and don't know anyone with a 70s model. Hopefully we'll be able to get something going soon. Regardless, head over there to see what has already been done and discussed on the subject. _________________ Jason Hopper
-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2904 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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David Follett wrote: |
Great site. Thanks for all the replays both pro & con. This is my 3 rd Ghia in 43 yrs with VW service. No gonna mess it up but want something a little different. |
That's cool. I was just putting the info out there as I could not tell if you were a seasoned VW'er or a first timer, but now I know! An experienced person will be logical with the mods, a teenager with a sawsall? Not so much!
The scoops on the leading edge of the curve in front of the rear wheel makes an effective intake, as does smaller scoops to the left or right of the rear window, but the first ones look much better. A simple scoop in the middle of the rear deck is very effective at lower speeds (I've tested those personally), but they do not work as well at higher speeds unless the opening is high to stay in the slipstream of the air flowing over the roof. |
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2904 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Ghia rear & front chin spoiler. |
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retrowagen wrote: |
Altema wrote: |
The original Ghia was designed using a wind tunnel and is known to be good for up to 160 mph with no handling issues, |
Actually, no, it was simply penned by Ghia using some style templates thay already had. The only wind tunnel in the vicinity at the time was at the technical university in Turin, but Ghia didn't use it.
Some of the newer modified Type 14's (thinking of Jochen Bader's Porsche-powered specimen, in particular) is probably one of the few (non-Drag) Ghias capable of nearly 150 mph, and, according to a friend who was given a ride in it on unlimited Autobahn up to approximately 140 mph, above 110 mph or so, even with its chin spoiler, wide tires, and Porsche 911 suspension, it was rather sketchy and had lots of lift. |
I apologize if the info is incorrect. I was going on information posted here on the Samba, and also a document which contained a lot of insider information:
"VW Fact #691: The Karmann Ghia owed its streamlined body design to wind tunnel research."
The original document can be found here:
http://en.convdocs.org/docs/index-34457.html?page=7
For the 160mph reference, I was going back to a conversation I had with Burly when I was registering with the USFRA, and there is indeed a 160mph Ghia with a fairly stock body. If the Bader Ghia is unstable at high speed, then perhaps it was setup for short track use at the time. The Bader Ghia top speed is 189mph. There's no aero mods to the rear, and the chin spoiler does not add stability unless it blocks a significant amount of airflow under the car, which the little spoiler on the Bader Ghia does not. The wide tires hurt as they force air to pile up in the front fender wells.
A stock Ghia has 160 pounds of lift in front and 70 pounds of lift in rear, which is significant when you consider that there's only 372 pounds of weight on each front tire anyway. From experience with my own Ghia, it does noticeably lighten up around 80, but seems to stabilize above 100mph. |
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KGCoupe Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2005 Posts: 3580 Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:17 am Post subject: |
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There is an old urban legend that says that because the profile of the Karmann Ghia design is so similar to the cross section of an airplane wing, that the body will actually generate enough lift at high speeds to lift the body completely off the roadway (or would that be "runway") surface.
A few years back, there was a thread in here - Coefficient of drag - that had a lot of really good info regarding the aerodynamics of the Karmann Ghia.
As a teenager, I recall reading about the two different types of aerodynamic design - stylized aerodynamics, and true aerodynamics.
Some cars that look as though they must certainly be very slippery in the wind (such as the Porsche's old flagship 928) are only stylized aero, and actually have a relatively high coefficient of drag.
I suspect the Karmann Ghia falls in that category. |
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John Moxon Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004 Posts: 13955 Location: Southampton U.K.
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aero3113 Samba Member
Joined: March 03, 2013 Posts: 196 Location: Setauket, NY (Long Island)
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Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:33 am Post subject: |
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What does he have under the front hood? I see he has louvers stamped in. |
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John Moxon Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004 Posts: 13955 Location: Southampton U.K.
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KGCoupe Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2005 Posts: 3580 Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:04 am Post subject: |
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From the link, I see that the louvers are part of the air extraction boxes.
.... just one more question - what exactly are "air extraction boxes"?
I'm guessing that they are used to channel the air from the nose grills up and out the louvers to provide more stability to the car at such extreme high speeds, correct?
If so, then would the extra air flowing over the roof actually provide some additional downforce?
BTW, I bought my 1967 Karmann Ghia from Bill at California Classix back in 2005.
He is a great guy, and finds some of the most amazing cars.
What an awesome way to make a living, even if he does have to sell those amazing cars rather than keep them all. |
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John Moxon Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004 Posts: 13955 Location: Southampton U.K.
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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2904 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:01 am Post subject: |
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KGCoupe wrote: |
.... just one more question - what exactly are "air extraction boxes"?
I'm guessing that they are used to channel the air from the nose grills up and out the louvers to provide more stability to the car at such extreme high speeds, correct?
If so, then would the extra air flowing over the roof actually provide some additional downforce? |
Roger would be the most accurate source, but the two middle ducts look like they relieve pressure from the grill area. Even though it's curved, it presents itself as a flat area to oncoming air. Blanking the openings off keeps the problem and forces the air to go elsewhere, and really does not help. What Larry did was provide a drain for the air pressure, making the area somewhat transparent in terms of aerodynamic drag.
The two outer vents look like they go to the fender wells, which is also brilliant. The front fender wells pile up air pressure and can add to lift and drag. It's not only the tires and suspension that snag air; under the front valance in the beam area is a pressure zone too. Add the bow wave which rejoins the body near the back edge of the fender well, and you have a lot going on besides just turbulence. Adding the fender well extractors removes pressure from the wheel wells and the beam area, drains off air pressure under the valance, and generally adds stability.
But that's just a guess... |
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TwinkyZulu Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011 Posts: 129 Location: Texas
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Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I have a question or an idea on the note of air piling up under the gas tank and in the wheel wells in the front of a ghia which creates lift at high speeds.
If the solution is a o let the air out of the wheel wells, couldn't you just put louvers on top of the front fenders behind the headlights do draw that air out? |
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sancho58 Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2013 Posts: 92 Location: SAN JOSE
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Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: fastest Ghia |
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Wow ! You could say he was the Burt Munroe (world fastest Indian)
Of his time |
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