CV Joint Install Questions

[Snort]

2WD rear axle, I'm installing new Lobro joints. The kit comes with a concave washer, and the joint supplier says it should go up against the shoulder on the axle. I see the Bentley makes a mention of the shoulder but no drawing. Guess, what? I don't have a shoulder on my axle, it's smooth all the way after the splines.

Any problems here? Just ignore the washer, lack of shoulder and move on? The old joint seemed to be fine that way before.

One more thing, these new cv joints are stiff as hell! I suppose that's a good thing and they quickly break-in for a bit more smooth operation?

Thanks!

[msewalson]

Just ignore the washer.
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87 Syncro w/EJ22

[Syncroincity]

New CVs are always very tight... makes it a pain to really get them greased well. Take your time packing them, make sure every nook & cranny is filled with grease before install. Clean excess grease out of the mounting holes with Q-Tips, you don't want ANY grease on the bolts.
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'86 Syncro CHC Top AAZ Turbodiesel
'04 Passat Variant 4Mo 5MT

Vanagon Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=466866&highlight=

[bluebus86]

yes that is really WRONG, you got the wrong axle there. You certainly need the curved washer. I have done my vanagons axles and they are supposed to have a shoulder on the axle, I used the curved washer there. I also have done my 914 axles (original German) and they did have a shoulder, and required the curved washer too..

The curved washer puts pressure on the cv joints, so that it is somewhat tensioned aginst the lock ring. with the shoulder and the lock ring you have to press the cv aginst the curved washer, partially compressing it, in order to fit the lock ring. this pretensions the cv aginst the lock ring.

What can happen without the curved washer is the cv is allowed to freely move on the splines, the cv will eventually pound its way into the lockring, and eventually pound the lockring off. that is the reason that it is supposed to be tensioned aginst the curved washer.

The CV MUST be pretensioned on the lockring to prevent any back and forth motion on the splines

Remember the CV will want to move back and forth on the splines as the axle moves with the suspension up and down, the CV joint is desinged to handle this in and out motion. If the cv is allowed to move in and out on the splines it will, and that is not good, I have found bent and banged up lock rings or lock ring grooves when the washer was not installed (or installed upside down). You must be assured the cv cant move back and forth on the splines.

I am certain you have crappy aftermarket axle(s).

I know that the EMPI aftermarket axles are junk, and they are much like what you have in the photo, I bought a set (complete with CV's attached) I returned them, the cv's were junk, (chinese made) they were packed with two different colors of grease (first clue something was wrong) (one joint had a bit of both types of grease) upon cleaning them I found the surface finish of the races was horribly rough, and the joints did move back and forth on the splines, no curved washer and no way to attach one, no shoulder!!!

I rejected them and ended up paying a bit more money for replacement LOBRO CV's that I installed on my original axles with the shoulder.

I took a look at my Bentely Offical service manual, there is a drawing of the axle, and it clearly shows a shoulder for the curved washer to rest on.

I dont know what version of the Bentely book you have, mine is the 1987 edition, the drawing of the axle is on page 42.7 clearly showing the shoulder, there is also a picture of the axle just above the drawing, again showing a shoulder.

also my book states....

Page 42.8

"Figure 6 Circlip/Constant velocity joint installing - press joint onto shaft until circlip can be pressed into groove."

The book tells us to "press the joint on to the shaft" that is because you are compresing the curved washer so that you can install the circlip. If you where not pre-tensioning the cv by pressing on the curved washer, there would be no need to press the joint on to the shaft, rather the joint would simply slip on and you would not need to press it to install the circlip. Figure 6 shows the press and special VW adaptor to do this pressing. Of course you can do this operation without this special tooling, but you still will need to press the CV aginst the curved washer before installing the lock ring. a suitable sized pipe and hammer will work if you dont have a press. you can actually press on the circlip with the pipe, then while pressing on the pipe, use a punch from the side to help seat the circlip

The design of the aftermarket axle with no shoulder is such that it does NOT satisfiy best engineering practice on how a splined part is supposed to rest on the stop (ie lack of any shoulder), the CV is just resting on the tiny bit of the end of the splines.



So what you now have is a poorly designed inferior aftermarket axle shaft, and a high quality German CV joint, the axle shaft is such that you can NOT correctly install the CV joints on it, the axle and CV will move back and forth, this will damage the spline ends and/or damage /break the lockring, which can leave you stranded.

I strongly urge you to find a used original German axle shaft. pull them off a wreck, do a classified ad, call a vanagon vendor (van cafe, Bus Boys etc.. what ever), get the right ORIGINAL axle shaft for the CV joint.

Then assemble the axle with the correct curved washer, check all tolerances, there must be no back and forth mothion on the splines refer to the Bentely book for the shaft diminsions. keep in mind that automatic transmission and manual transmisson vans use different length shafts, get the correct one.


Also if the curved washer is installed upside down, it wont pre-tension the CV aginst the lockring, and thus the CV will move and will bang up the lock ring, I have seen lock ring failures becuase the curved washer was installed upside down.

Sorry for the extra work you have to do, but getting the correct axle is the ONLY way to do this right

[Wildthings]

[syncrodoka]

That concave washer is used on baywindow busses not vanagons(they share the same CVs). Throw it away.

[randywebb]

[randywebb]

[GreenMachineVW]

Having six axles in the garage, I had to look. Five of the six are as above: no step, no washer, and no room for a washer. The sixth, on which I replaced the CVs with Lobros a couple of years ago, does have the step, and I did put in the washers, as there would have been play if I hadn't. Four of the five similar axles have the VW logo. The last, mismatched pair is still too dirty to see. The axle with the step is a no name one I got through a national parts franchise about ten years ago, as is the mismatched partner that I got at the same supplier, same order.

[Wildthings]

[mr. c]

[bluebus86]

whow, more Bentely confusion!!!! i guess VW made hese vanagons custom, with any parts they could find laying around.

anyway if your set up does not allow back and forth motion on the splines, then go for it, if however there is play that allows back and forth motion on the splines that is no good, as the locking ring can be damaged by this motion.
I know the aftermarket EMPI axles were inferior inpart becuase of the back and forth motion allowed by the design, my stock axles were of superior design. it could be inlight of this info above that your axles are stock , from a different batch and it could be they allow no back and forth motion as is. if so go for it, if not, figure out what you need to do to correct it.

i love my VW in a love / hate relationship, my 1986 van has so many in- consistancies with the contemporary bentely manual, wiring diagrams being amoung the worst.

[Snort]

OK, thanks for the input. I'm going to run with what I have and save the shouldered axle business for another life. Here's a shot of the joint installed, as described up above with the spline ends doing the work to provide the inner stop.

[onemat]

My appologies for hijacking this thread, but I also need axles and CVs for my '82 with 2.0 and 4 speed. Are the axles also known as 1/2 axles?
Lastly, what are the correct part numbers for my bus and where is the best place to order them?
Thanks,
Matt
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'82 Vanagon GL with 2.0 4-speed. Long term plan is to turn it into a camper.

[dhaavers]

[Wildthings]

[greebly]

On my 91 automatic one axle had the shoulder and washers, the other did not. It had been on there a long time. I don't think imminent failure will occur if when you press the CV on the axle and it is seated at the end of the spline, if there is very little play available once the retaining ring is installed. If your axle has a shoulder it was designed for the washer and the washer should be utilized.

[boof1306]

You will never achieve correct torque on any bolt without lubricant. Even Loctite acts as a lubricant on initial install. For the record I torque my cv bolts(10.9 grade non allen key) to 37ftlbs / 50nm. No stripped threads, no broken bolts and no issues off road in a syncro.

[Durk]

I have a couple of questions about cv joints and axles after installing new Lobros on one axle of my '84 2WD today. Are original VW axles stamped with the logo, and if so, where? Couldn't see any markings on mine, but obviously most of the shaft is rusty. It did not have shoulders. What it did have inboard of the old cv joints, though, were concave washers, but they had grooves on the inside that mated on the splines and kept them from sliding right up the shaft like the concave washers included with my new joint kit from Van Cafe would do. I understand that these new washers are useless with the non-shouldered shafts. I tried the fit with the grooved washers and the new joints, but the fit was too tight to get the circlip on. Does anybody know about this type of concave washer that can conceivably be used on the straight, non-shouldered shaft? With no concave washer inboard of the joint there is a small space, about 1/16", between the inner race and the circlip. Is this gap ok? I know you don't want much space there to avoid hammering.

Thanks.

[roscoePcoaltrane]

I had a cv go out on my 85 Westy automatic...ordered a pair of EMPI from GW. They indicated they were ungreased. The looked schmacked together smeared with some type of grease. Not impressed...I could not find the grease "packet" supposedly included or discern which was the inner or outer joint.

When removing the axles, I marked inner/outer, right/left. I am tempted to send them back and go with the lobros I have read about on Samba.
thanks
I appreciated any feedback
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1985 automatic subyvanagon
daily driver