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VW 1600 bogging and/or flat spots. Please Help
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Jrbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: VW 1600 bogging and/or flat spots. Please Help Reply with quote

I purchased a street legal Sand Rail about two months ago. Had a hard time running so, I took it into a well known VW shop. The Sand Rail had two dual 40mm carbs and electric fuel pump. First shop told me with the two dual 40mm carbs, it was too much carburetion. They put a 30pic dual port carb on there, telling me that the 34pic would hesitate, plus got rid of the electric fuel pump as well. Ok, picked it up and it tends to bog or has flat spots when I am shifting down to second gear and trying to accelerate. It also seems to bog down in the higher speeds for third and forth gear. Took it back to the first shop, they told me to drop it off for a day, that the injector tube that injects the gas needed drilling out or reaming out. That you could only do a little at a time.
Got tired of the first shop not fixing the problem, so I took it to another well know shop. They told me that the reason why its bogging out is that I needed to put a 34pic on there. That the 34 pic shoots gas directly down the throat, where with the 30 pic, is off center of the throat. Now, I am totally confused at this point, I just want to drive my Sand Rail and not have it bog down. Just had a third opinion again from the first shop, they stated due to the cam I have in the 1600 motor, the 34 pic would be worse. They state it is the cam in the 1600 motor that is causing the flat spots or bogging down.
Would love to take it to someone who knows what they are doing, but tired of spending money on VW repair shops that state what the problem is and it never gets fixed. As I stated earlier, it is for street enjoyment only, not off road or sand. Any suggestions?
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For smooth street diving you want a matched carb + distributor.

What make/model carb & distributor do you have installed? Full model numbers please... The 30Pict-1 is much different than the 30Pict-3. The stock Solex carbs came matched to a specific distributor. Mismatch them and you are asking for hesitation and lack of power. This is even more apparent with the 34Pict-3 and 34Pict-4 since these were lean running carbs.

Ignition timing will have a big effect on driveability. Timing will depend on the distributor model (not so much engine).

If you have a non-stock cam, please post the make and model.
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Jrbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, It's a brand new Solex H 30/31, IND BRAS, Dist has a JF4, then an arrow to the left, has a number of 0 231 178 009, then lower on the left is 085.

I do not what size of cam or make, but you can hear it.

Hope that helps, I read it in the dark with a flash light, thanks for your help.
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Go_Bug_n
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jrbrass wrote:
OK, It's a brand new Solex H 30/31, IND BRAS, Dist has a JF4, then an arrow to the left, has a number of 0 231 178 009, then lower on the left is 085.

I do not what size of cam or make, but you can hear it.

Hope that helps, I read it in the dark with a flash light, thanks for your help.


The fact that you have an 009 distributor is the main problem. All 009's should be chucked in the ocean, unless you're racing. In which case, vacuum advance isn't needed.

You have to have a vacuum advance at part throttle! Your carburetor is jetted to expect that. With an 009, you'll have to richen everything up to compensate and it still isn't as good as a carb matched to the correct dizzy w/ vacuum advance.

Find out what dizzy is supposed to go with your particular 30Pict and find a restored Bosch SVDA on the net. Go to http://www.advanceddistributors.com/ and see if he can fix you up.

Better to pay for a restored, and correct, original than fool around with 009's and Chinese knockoffs.
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Jrbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I am a newbie here, kinda talking greek to me. Smile So, you're saying I need a distrib with a vacumm advance? I will look up the term Dizzy so I can understand. The mechanic put in electronic ignition in my 009. If I get that other distrib, can I put the same electronic ignition in the new one? By the way, I looked on my receipt, it reads a 30/31 pic 1.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jrbrass wrote:
OK, I am a newbie here, kinda talking greek to me. Smile So, you're saying I need a distrib with a vacumm advance? I will look up the term Dizzy so I can understand. The mechanic put in electronic ignition in my 009. If I get that other distrib, can I put the same electronic ignition in the new one? By the way, I looked on my receipt, it reads a 30/31 pic 1.


I would hold off on replacing the distributor. While a 34Pic3 definitely does not go well with an 009, an H30/31 can work with the 009, although not ideal.

What it sounds like is that the carb is not adjusted properly. I would either take it back or if you want to do it yourself check out the info on this site http://www.vw-resource.com

The H30/31 should work fine on a 1600 as would the 34pic (but not with the 009 distributor), as would your original carbs (Hopefully, the first shop gave you your old carbs and pump back, if not, go ask for them, they should be worth some money. Chances are they were fine and just needed adjusting.)

At this point, my suggestion would be to go through that web site and set your timing as described there. Then adjust your carb as described there and see if that doesn't solve the problem. You might also contact the original owner and find out what, if any, modifications he made to the engine, such as replacing the cam or rockers, etc. They probably aren't the cause of your flat spot, but if he put dual carbs on it, he probably didn't stop there.

ps. if you are in Scottsdale, there should be numerous VW enthusiasts. Hopefully one of them will see your post and respond or you can find somebody there and they can help diagnose your problem first hand.
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sb001
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people swear by the 009 / H30/31 setup (just ask busdriver79!) Very Happy

My own personal opinion, having never actually run an 009, is that its probably OK but you have to have it timed JUST right. I'm running my SVDA distributor right now with the vacuum canister plugged (mechanical advance only) so its sort of like an 009, except the 009 was actually DESIGNED to run without vacuum so different advance curve and mine wasn't. It actually runs OK overall like this and I run it with a 30 PICT 3.

Take a look at this chart:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Now according to this chart the H30/31 was never really designed to be run with SVDA and DVDA distributors (both mechanical + vacuum distributors.) THis would seem to indicate that the H30/31 was made to run with the 009 (mechanical only) but there are lots of folks who have run it with vacuum distributors just fine. Lots of people who like the 009 seem to be running it with earlier carbs (30 PICT1 or 30 PICT2) because they were jetted to run richer and this type carb helps eliminate the flat spot. Once VW went to the 30 PICT3 and 34 PICT3 these were emission-controlling carburetors and were designed to run leaner, so it is more difficult to iron out the flat spot. The H30/31 can be used as a replacement for any of these, but in reality it is mostly supposed to be used as a replacement for the earlier carbs which originally used a different (SVDA or DVDA) distributor.

OK, so do you switch the carburetor to one that will run better with an 009 distributor? Or do you switch the distributor to run with the H30/31 carburetor? That's up to you, but before I did anything I would try re-timing the 009 with the setup you have now. I don't know if you know how to time your engine but you need a mark on the crankshaft pulley at 30 before top dead center, and then use that to time your engine at 3000-3200 RPMs. Basically you want that 30 mark to line up with the crankcase seam at the point where the engine has revved up to its maximum advance (where the crankshaft pulley will not move any farther, usually around 3000-3200 RPMs.) The 009 really has to be timed this way (at maximum advance), it can't be timed correctly at idle. Try this first and see if you can eliminate the flat spot or significantly decrease it.
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camaroboi13
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcnjoe gave you some pretty good advice. Also depends on which particular 009 distributor you have on there as well. There was a decent bosch unit back in the day which is what I am running till I can afford an 019 from Glen. Then there are zillions of Chinese knock off 009 distributors that are hit and miss...well, mostly miss to be honest. But the good 009 distributor DOES work decently with the H30/31 carb, I ran that way for awhile till I went to dual weber carbs. There's probably a whole lot of tuning issues going on amongst all your parts, and it doesn't sound like either of the shops are wanting to make a couple bucks off of turning a screwdriver.

009 distributor should be at 28-32* timing at full advance (checked at or above 3200rpm) with that H30/31 carb you should be ok. I never had a problem with a flat spot on that setup while it was on my 1600, but some people encounter a small flatspot, usually like 1-200 rpms of bogging then it goes away. You can tune to remove the flat spot, but you're basically putting a bandaid on a problem. If you're looking for wide open throttle performance, try and work with that 009 distributor and the H30/31 carb...the magic is in there somewhere you just have to find it. If you want to be able to cruise your rail around then definitely look for an SVDA distributor to go with that 34pic carb of yours.

Whatever you do, the next time you take it to a shop and they tell you that you need to purchase other parts without even attempting to tune it first, pick up your things and walk away.
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2001 Yukon Denali 6.0l AWD 24s TVs surround sound playstation 6 disc dvd etc etc.
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Jrbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, thanks for all the answers. Here's where I am confused. As I stated earlier, my 1600 doesn't have a stock cam. It has a bigger cam, size I do not know but I was told the cam is the problem. Now I have found this quote on several websites, Cam overlap can cause a drop in vacuum, and obviously, the vacuum advance on a stock carb and distributor wont work together properly. So, what distributor do I use with a 30pic and a larger cam so it won't bog or have flat spots?
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sb001
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jrbrass wrote:
OK, thanks for all the answers. Here's where I am confused. As I stated earlier, my 1600 doesn't have a stock cam. It has a bigger cam, size I do not know but I was told the cam is the problem. Now I have found this quote on several websites, Cam overlap can cause a drop in vacuum, and obviously, the vacuum advance on a stock carb and distributor wont work together properly. So, what distributor do I use with a 30pic and a larger cam so it won't bog or have flat spots?


I'm confused-- why would not still use the 009? It doesn't use vacuum advance at all. Just plug all your vacuum ports on the H30/31 time that setup as was described earlier and go.
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Solex 30 PICT3 carb

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camaroboi13
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That really depends on the size of the cam. Being that it's a rail, it sounds like they probably just threw a bunch of go fast parts at it, in which case driveabillity is compromised. Cars that like high rpm, DON'T like low rpm, there's no two ways about it on a non computer controlled car. You should still be able to do some tuning to get some kind of low end grunt out of it though.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jrbrass wrote:
OK, thanks for all the answers. Here's where I am confused. As I stated earlier, my 1600 doesn't have a stock cam. It has a bigger cam, size I do not know but I was told the cam is the problem. Now I have found this quote on several websites, Cam overlap can cause a drop in vacuum, and obviously, the vacuum advance on a stock carb and distributor wont work together properly. So, what distributor do I use with a 30pic and a larger cam so it won't bog or have flat spots?


The cam along with other engine modifications can change the vacuum, but since you are running an 009 distributor, you don't have a vacuum advance, so that should not be your problem. Most likely, you are going to need to increase the accelerator pump on the carb to squirt more fuel to kick the rpms higher when you hit the gas so that the mechanical advance kicks in quicker (it only kicks in at higher rpms).

Hower before doing that, and let me repeat: before doing that, you need to tune your engine and make sure it isn't something as simple as a minor adjustment to timing or fuel mixture. If you are new to VWs, my advice would be whenever having engine difficulties with hesitation or rough running, always retune your engine first before. Since you don't have points, that involves adjusting the idle and the timing. Again, follow the steps for you setup found at http://www.vw-resource.com and you cannot go wrong.

BTW, like many, Rob and Dave (from the website) are not fond of 009 distributors, but unlike many that tell you just to replace it, they tell you how to time it. The reason so many prefer an SVDA (single vacuum dual advance) distributor is improved gas mileage and performance, but that is only true if the vacuum single is matched to your carb.

Putting the wrong SVDA distributor on for a particular carb is no better than an 009. With your H30/009 combination, you should be able to get it to run very well, regardless of the cam. What might suffer is fuel economy compared to an SVDA, but what's a couple mpgs versus the cost of a new distributor, particularly if it needs work to make it match your engine?

From what you have said, the carb/distributor combination should give acceptable performance. The cam should not be causing this problem. Start with the basics of adjusting the idle and timing correctly and then see how it performs. VWs have a reputation of being economical to operate. You don't have to keep throwing money at yours just because some garage is telling you to replace everything under the sun.
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Brian
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just get a 010 or 019 and call it done.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lustig69 wrote:
Just get a 010 or 019 and call it done.


Try reading the topic next time Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sb001 wrote:

Now according to this chart the H30/31 was never really designed to be run with SVDA and DVDA distributors (both mechanical + vacuum distributors.) THis would seem to indicate that the H30/31 was made to run with the 009 it.


That's my chart and my comment... which derives, in part, from this post:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=185095

...and the assumption is NOT that it was "designed" to run with an 009. No, if you look at that post above, you'll see that it is internally set up quite like the 1970 version of the 30PICT-3 for the vacuum advance... and as such the ideal distributor would be a 113905205T, although the M and K distributors work fine with it as well provided they are timed properly. Those are vacuum-only distributors.

-Andy
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Jrbrass
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, if I am reading all the comments right, sounds like adjust my timing to 30 or 32 advance first (already tried adjusting carb), then adjust the accelerator pump, maybe a slightly larger main jet. If I adjust the timing to 30 or 32 degrees advance, will that be too hot? I just got a advance timing light, so turn the knob to 30 or 32, then rev it up, turn dist where the line lines up with the crack of the crank case, right? If it is already set to 10 degrees, then I just need to go 20 more? I really don't have a tach, this can be done by ear, right? Sorry, too early not thinking clearly. Smile Thank you all for your help, very much appreciated.
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Go_Bug_n
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When all else fails, put the motor back to what it was when it first rolled off the VW dealer's lot. That way, you KNOW it won't hiccup or bog. Many troubles are caused by PO's who bought go-fast crap from EMPI and JC Whitney and put them on.

Just my opinion, the VW engine is a rather sensitive thing. Anything from the smallest vacuum leak to mongrelized carb and 009 combos will make life miserable for everyday street driving.

sb001 has a superb posting and a chart of carb and distributor combos! Maybe you might be able to keep the aftermarket cam but, again, I'd suggest you get the motor back to pure stock if you want a drama-free engine. The only genuine improvement would be a Pertronix electronic ignition. Now THAT has proven to be a huge improvement in my experience.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This entire conversation reminds me of when I first started messing with VW's back in the early 70's. The engines look so simple that I thought any go-fast item could just be bolted on or added in. I have run the entire scale of mixing and matching parts to save a buck, make it go faster, or get better fuel mileage. What I found out is that VW engineers were a lot smarter than I originally thought. Yep - lots of add-ons are out there which will make your engine purr, scream, hiss, spit, cough, etc., and your mixture of parts seems like a perfect combination.

Fix your timing and carburetor adjustment first. And to Go-Bug-N - spot on! Put the engine as close to factory set-up as you can with what you have before letting any mechanic talk you into more parts. Step by step you can adjust for cam lift and separation, electronic ignition (which I love), re-jetting carb(s), etc. If you can "hear" that the cam is not for street use, then it may have been just thrown in without hi-performance lifters to match, valves may not be ground to accept more fuel quickly (3-angle grinds help), etc. I have run Bosch 009's - I even have a complete back up with electronic ignition in my on-board tool box in case I am stranded by the side of the road - but I don't run it as an everyday unit.
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sb001
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go_Bug_n wrote:


sb001 has a superb posting and a chart of carb and distributor combos!


Credit where credit is due, that was Andy's (glutamodo) chart, and I apologize: where I said the 30/31 was "mostly supposed to be used as a replacement for the earlier carbs which originally used a different (SVDA or DVDA) distributor" I actually meant to say "VACUUM-ONLY distributor."
My only point was that some folks might misunderstand that statement in the chart about the H30/31 not being a good fit for SVDA or DVDA distributors to mean it is supposed to be run with mechanical-only distributors like the 009 and that is wrong, although people do it (ask busdriver79!!) I did not phrase it very well so apologies again.
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Solex 30 PICT3 carb

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread is an interesting read.

Two points I wanted to make...
1) The 30/31 carb uses venturi vacuum for distributor advance. This is weak vacuum and will not work with most SVDA distributors. You need to use an earlier SVA (SVSA) distributor like the 205T if you want to use vacuum advance.

2) The venturi vacuum used by the 205T is less prone to problems with a loppy cam. Cams with big overlap cause issues with intake vacuum and ported vacuum. The 30/31 and 205T combo uses venturi vacuum which is based on the volume/speed of the air through the venturi. Higher rpms means more airflow and more vacuum. As long as the engine is running above idle there is venturi vacuum that varies with engine rpms.

So you can either make the 009 you have work better, or look in the classifieds for a 205T/M/K distributor and hook it up to your carb.
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