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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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 Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:56 pm Post subject: 36hp shoebox/exchanger/thermostat install |
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Just looking for some advice on the best (ok, easiest) way to install the exchanger with the rod and the shoebox (botttom tin) on a bone stock 36hp motor. The photos below should shed light on what Im dealing with. Initially, I trtied to put the exchanger and shoebox on the cylynder as one unit. That didn't work out. So, I'm wondering, is it better to put the shoebox on first? Then follow with the exchanger and hook the rod into the flapper afterward? Or is it better to put the exchanger on first then follow with the shoebox?
Here are some pics...
Here are my cleaned up exchangers with the shoeboxes. I can't get these on over the cylnder when they (shoebox and exchanger) are together.
You can see the rods that connect the flappers in the shoeboxes in these photos.
Here's an exchanger separated from a shoebox. Should this go on separately first? Or after the shoebox?
I can get the shoebox up under here on its own, but then I have to conncet the exchanger and it seems tough to line up. Any suggestions?
Appreciate any advice anyone can offer.
Last edited by SixVolt on Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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earthquake
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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You should post this over in the "Vintage Speed" sub forum, you will probably get more hits.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewforum.php?f=44
Casey
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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I assumed that vintage speed forum was for "perfrmance enhancements" to 36hp engines using period correct items. Since I'm doing a stock engine, I put it here. Perhaps a moderator or Everett will see this and move it if appropriate. I do, in any event, appreciate the suggestion.
I did get the shoeboxes and exchangers on by putting the shoeboxes on first followd by the exchangers. I have a little problem with one of the flappers hanging up inside the shoebox so I have to work through that, but it is coming together. Exhaust and a new distributor cap and I'll be there.
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: 36hp shoebox/exchanger install |
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| SixVolt wrote: |
[URL=http://s216.photobucket.com/user/gallareed/media/VW/file_zps0af1e402.jpg.html][img] |
This is not the right thermostat bracket for a 36hp.
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: 36hp shoebox/exchanger install |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| SixVolt wrote: |
[URL=http://s216.photobucket.com/user/gallareed/media/VW/file_zps0af1e402.jpg.html][img] |
This is not the right thermostat bracket for a 36hp. |
Appreciate that information. Any chance there is an easy way to differentiate between brackets? I thought this one was appropriate because it did not have the "adjustment space" like the later ones do on upright engines. Perhpas this one is from an early 40HP? |
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wayne1230cars
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Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 2685
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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That is looking good. That is how I did my 36 hp engine - tin first and then the heat exchangers.
As far as the bracket goes, this bracket came off a 36 hp engine.
I believe there were several brackets used on the 40 hp engines. The earlier style was for the throttle ring equipped engines. Perhaps that is what you have. I can't be sure from the photo. I don't think there would be a problem using the bracket you have. It would be stronger than the earlier style.
When I did my engine I assembled the engine and all the tin and thermostat linkage and then used a heat gun or hair dryer on the thermostat to heat it up and verify its operation and to make sure nothing was binding. It was actually pretty simple to do.
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EverettB 
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:28 am Post subject: Re: 36hp shoebox/exchanger install |
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| SixVolt wrote: |
| I thought this one was appropriate because it did not have the "adjustment space" like the later ones do on upright engines. Perhpas this one is from an early 40HP? |
You are correct, it will work just the same as a 36hp bracket. Even the later style with the adjustment space will work, but then you loose the cool factor once every ten years when you get to look at it during a valve job.
40hp stage 1 = stale air with control ring.
40hp stage 2 = fresh air with control ring.
40hp stage 3 = fresh air with flaps and adjustable bracket.
Bentley states the bracket change coincided with a thermostat temperature change, necessitating a reinforced bracket. I don't see how the temperature change would affect the bracket design, but that's the reason they give, quoted below.
...
Note :
From Chassis No. 4 166 056 (Engine No . 6 120 731) , the
opening temperature of the thermostat was reduced from
75 - 80° C to 65 - 70° C (149 - 150 ° F). The bracket has
been reinforced for this reason.
The previous type of bracket will be discontinued when
existing stocks are exhausted. The modified bracket can
be used on all engines. When an old thermostat is replaced
by the new pattern, the modified bracket must be installed
at the same time. The figures "65 °" are stamped on the
bottom of the modified thermostat. |
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wayne1230cars
Samba Member
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Posts: 2685
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of other pics of brackets borrowed from the Samba.
Based on the Bentley quote in the post above, it would seem that the 36 hp C style brackets were used till Oct. 1961. Then they went with the reinforced style of bracket which I think is this pic.
Then there was the later style of 40 hp bracket that has some adjustment to it. Not sure when that occurred - maybe 1965 model year??
As stated already, the bracket you have will work fine.
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SixVolt
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Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Many thanks to all who weighed in on the thermostat issue involving 36HP engines. I amended the heading of this thread to include thermostats, so folks searching down the road will find the excellent information all of you have contributed. Great stuff!
I'll work a little more and post on my "flapper" issue (one of the flappers in the shoeboxes is hanging up) and post up some pics. Also the muffler install and clamps on the J pipe coming off the HE.
I really appreciate all the advice and critical comments. I never feel bad when folks who know more than me point something out. I like to get it right. I (and others) can only do so with your input. |
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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The later bracket will work/fit on the 36 hp engines.
I have always been able to install the heat exchanger and shoe box as one unit. It takes a little jiggling and wiggling but they will install. I sometimes loosen the screw joining the two parts together to give it a little more wiggle room.
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beetleman217
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Note that the location of the hole that mounts to the case is different between the two brackets!
This means that when installed, the same thermo will sit at a different height between the two brackets. So I don't think they are interchangeable. I tried to use an early bracket with a late case and it didn't work.
Also, there were two different thermo rods - a short one for the early bracket and ring, and a long one for the late bracket and flaps.
I suggest you make sure everything lines up correctly and test the thermo with a heat gun before you install the engine.
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SixVolt
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Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| beetleman217 wrote: |
Note that the location of the hole that mounts to the case is different between the two brackets!
This means that when installed, the same thermo will sit at a different height between the two brackets. So I don't think they are interchangeable. I tried to use an early bracket with a late case and it didn't work.
Also, there were two different thermo rods - a short one for the early bracket and ring, and a long one for the late bracket and flaps.
I suggest you make sure everything lines up correctly and test the thermo with a heat gun before you install the engine. |
Excellent pictures and information. Those rods look different in shape as well as size. I'm definitely going to check the performanceo of this thermostat with a heat gun before installing anything. I've also got another old 36HP motor that seems to have a full thermostat setup in place so I'm going to check it out and take some pics to see what it reveals. I'll try to post the engine # as well to see if it is original.
As for the flapper on cylinders #3 and #4 it was hanging up in the shoe box when I engaged tghe lever. So I pulled it out and it revealed one of the tabs was missing so it was moving "cockeyed" in the shoebox when the lever was pulled and hanging up. The pictures boelow show the missing tab and the one still in place. I'm going to have to grind it and weld a little tab in place to make this flapper useable.
You can see that the tab is missing on one side in these pics.
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tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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A broken tab on the flap is a common problem. Sometimes they are both broken.
The earlier brackets do not have as much adjustment where they mount to the case, as the later ones but otherwise they are interchangeable.
The thermostat rods on the other hand are NOT interchangeable owing to the difference in size and shape between the 36 cylinder head and the 40 horse. You can use the 36 hp thermostat rod with the later bracket on a 36 hp case.
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1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
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SixVolt
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Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Got to work on that missing tab today. I'm not much of a welder but I had some old VW sheet metal so I cut and bent a piece and made something work.
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wayne1230cars
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Posts: 2685
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like you are making good progress. 
I had my '60 out for a drive this week. It was cool and so I had the heat on. Surprisingly it kicks out a fair bit of heat. Granted this is in a car that has excellent heater channels and boxes. It was like 35 degrees F so not winter temperatures by any means.
I also had my 1970 out for a drive on the same morning and in comparison it produces quite a bit more heat with the fresh air system and better heater boxes.
Of course neither car gets driven in winter temperatures but it is nice to have heat that you can turn on for early spring and fall drives.
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SixVolt
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Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, this is the never ending project. One more quick question on thermostats. Do I have the spring in the right orientation in the photo below? It seems like the end of it is going to block my ability to put the fan shround on. What did I do wrong?
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| That looks right. Disconnect the spring from the air control bracket while you're putting it together so it doesn't get hung op on the fan shroud. |
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1136
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Many thanks. I'll report back with pics later. |
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beetleman217
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Posts: 515
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 7:15 am Post subject: |
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You have it on correctly. That end of the spring pushes against the outside of the shroud. After you install the shroud, you squeeze the spring on its other side onto the bracket that holds the air ring, thus creating a spring load that wants to push the air ring out of the shroud. The thermo is what holds it in when cold.
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