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Engine oil aditives: ZDDP aditive replacement...Help!!
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vw_sp2
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Engine oil aditives: ZDDP aditive replacement...Help!! Reply with quote

Hi everybody!, I need some advice about oil additives for improving wear protection.

Here in Argentina, 10W30 oil is not sold...so I'm using 10W40 partially synthetic oil and, as I heve read in this forum, our aircooled engines need ZDDP to prevent wear.

The truth is that, again, oils with the correct ammount of ZDDP elements for VW aircooled engines, are not sold here... too sad, and I'm very angry about that.


So, here in my contry I can buy other type of oil additive, but my question is for the VW aircooled experts.... as I want to know if it's good to use it.

I refer to molybdenum sulfide (MoS2) aditives...like

LIQUI-MOLY:

http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produktdb.nsf/i...db=web.nsf


What I want to know, is if this type of additive will prevent engine wear in aircooled VW engines instead of using additional ZDDP aditives that aren't sold here.


Thanks in advance for all your help and advice.

Best regards from Argentina!


Andrés
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no conclusive evidence that "emergency lubricants" serve a purpose beyond the break in period or for dry starts where the oil has no 'film strength' left. 10-40 needs to be changed sooner because the the additives that make it behave like a thicker oil break down. QuakerState has something called Defy which has extra zinc. A engine should be started and allowed to drive the moisture from the oil about every two weeks which also prevents a severe dry start which causes most of the wear on a crank. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually, a guy over on the chevelle forums tested a bunch of oils with and without the ZDDP additive, and found that the additive actually REDUCED the scuff protection. I have since sworn off any oil additives. Here's the link to his findings:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443674

If you want to know the best wear-protecting oils that he tested, here's a long explanation, followed by a slightly less-long list of oils:

http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

EDIT: just read his updated version, and apparently, the "oil extreme concentrate" actually does improve wear protection significantly. I may have to get some, as a backup to good oil.
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vw_sp2
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many thanks guys for your recommendations.... great data!.

And what about SUPERKOTE 2000?, works as good as it promises?..


It is unfortunate that I can not get good oil types and brands.
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Quokka42
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know the superkote product and a search throws up pages in Spanish. Sounds like it might be another treatment along the lines of liquimoly.

Moly addiditves are not the same as ZInc. Moly additives are designed to chemically combine with steel to form a hard, wear resistant surface. Zinc is actually a high pressure lubricant. Zinc is most important during run in and many have successfully switched to modern lubricants with lower zinc levels after run in. Recommended levels are in the range of 1200 to 1800ppm. While a bit lower might be OK, higher levels actually can be problematic and this is the trouble with additives - you need to know how much zinc is in your oil, then carefully measure the additive to get to the right level. During run in things tend to be running hotter at the relevant surfaces, and parts are actually wearing against each other, so a zinc level of 1000-1800 is still a good idea for at least the first 300 miles. After this you can use an oil with less zinc, but high anti-scuff properties - head on over for a long read on the oil sticky and you'll find an explanation of the codes to tell you, but most modern oils are actually pretty good.
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vw_sp2
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, molibdenum is good for street aircooled engines when they're new?. Thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You used to be able to buy STP, which was loaded with zinc. They advertised it as extending the life of camshafts, back when everything was flat tappet. Too much zinc and it would erode bearings. Now, I suspect most cams use roller followers????
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

qakerstate deffy has zinc in it,$16 for jug at wally world.part synthetic blend.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark tucker wrote:
qakerstate deffy has zinc in it,$16 for jug at wally world.part synthetic blend.


Tucker the guy lives in Argentina and probably doesn't have a Wally World.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Engine oil aditives: ZDDP aditive replacement...Help!! Reply with quote

vw_sp2 wrote:


The truth is that, again, oils with the correct ammount of ZDDP elements for VW aircooled engines, are not sold here... too sad, and I'm very angry about that.

Andrés


If you cannot buy the oil you want for cars, try looking at oils for other engines.

Examples of engines that are similar
-Cummins B and C series diesels (flat tappets)
-John Deere engines (flat tappets)
-Classic motorcycles, (example: harley davidson)

If all else fails then buy regular oil and just add a half quart of hypoid gear oil. (oil for gears and differentials)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may not have a problem, as the API with rates US oil and makes the standards here in the US likely does not have jurisdiction in Argentina. it well could be the oil in Argentina never lost the ZDDP. Check with your national standards organization to see what you have.

A good heavy duty truck oil is one source for high ZDDP oil in the US. If your oil is indeed lacking in zddp, see what your local diesel truck oil is like.

Generally here in the US the heavy wieghted oils have enough ZDDP in them, only the lighter oils have a greatly reduced ZDDP level.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with using STP in air cooled VW's. I have used it for over 30 years in street and racing VW engines and had no oil related problems.
I use half a pint per oil change in a stock engine. Add a little more if using a deep sump on the engine.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bugguy076 wrote:
I agree with using STP in air cooled VW's. I have used it for over 30 years in street and racing VW engines and had no oil related problems.
I use half a pint per oil change in a stock engine. Add a little more if using a deep sump on the engine.


STP red was the one to use to get the correct zinc level. When the formulation changed for regular oils the STP red was taken off the market. The blue has some zinc but not enough.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you need is an oil spec sheet for what a VW requires as far as zinc, phosphorus, etc. And I am sure that someone on here has that. Then search your available oils to find some that have the correct additives. Its very possible that you may not have a problem with many of your oils, particularly ones for diesel applications.

And I would change the title of your post to something like "What are good ACVW oils in Argentina?" This way you wont have folks suggesting that you go to a USA retailer that you may not have there.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:14 pm    Post subject: Use additives sparingly Reply with quote

Oil additives won't stay suspended and build up as sludge on an engine case/oil pan. I used to use stp or lucus until I discovered a 3/4" layer of sludge in the bottom of my engine that was very close to blocking of the pickup screen. I don't play 'home chemist' like I used to. There are a lot of flat tappet engines on the road that do not develop problems. I guess no one bothered to tell the engines in these cars, jeep 4.0s for instance.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpha_Maverick wrote:
actually, a guy over on the chevelle forums tested a bunch of oils with and without the ZDDP additive, and found that the additive actually REDUCED the scuff protection. I have since sworn off any oil additives. Here's the link to his findings:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443674

If you want to know the best wear-protecting oils that he tested, here's a long explanation, followed by a slightly less-long list of oils:

http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

EDIT: just read his updated version, and apparently, the "oil extreme concentrate" actually does improve wear protection significantly. I may have to get some, as a backup to good oil.


FANTASTIC!!!! Thank you for sharing this!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ thats actually some good info above. I too own a bearing wear/oil film strength test machine and I'll tell you guys first hand oils are not what you think they are, on many levels. I have found many of the same findings as in the links above. Also there are many ways you screw up an engine playing with zinc, thats some corrosive shit, and to much will hurt an engine as much as the right amount can help it. So heed causion if youre going to play with zinc.
Pop quiz qustion of the day, how much synthetic oil is in a synthetic blend oil?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SRP1 wrote:
Pop quiz qustion of the day, how much synthetic oil is in a synthetic blend oil?


Not very much. Probably as little as 10%. "Synthetic" oil is mostly a big marketing scam.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree synthetic blend is a mostly a marketing ploy. Pure synthetic has value. Ford's line of ecoboost engines are flat tappet buckets as I am sure other manufacturers are. They survive without added zinc etc.
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