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To EMPI or not to EMPI... (34 EPC)
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marbleknight
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:20 am    Post subject: To EMPI or not to EMPI... (34 EPC) Reply with quote

I've been playing around with the idea of getting dual carbs for my '74 bug sedan for some time now. It's completely stock except for a Tri-Mil hotdog exhaust, which I just got to play around with. As usual I've done a lot of the research right here on the Samba to learn about the good, the bad, and the ugly. One of the 'uglies' that often comes up is EMPI and their Chinese Weber 34 ICT copies, the 34 EPC. It seems the 34 EPCs have a somewhat messy reputation amongst VW nuts, as does the brand EMPI itself (I'm generalizing, but I've seen enough noses scrunch up and brows furrow when 'EMPI' is mentioned). On the other hand, some research outside of the Samba suggests that the 34 EPCs are not all that bad but they're not all that good right out of the box either. They need tweaking. Now, EPCs are at least $100 cheaper than the ICTs. And that's using Amazon to get the EPCs where I have a prime account and get free shipping on stuff. $269 is the rock-bottom price. The ICTs on the other hand are $370 from Weber direct, or you can go pay $400 - $430 at many other outlets on the web. That's a pretty big difference. It's enough to take this challenge: Can the EPCs be made to run just as good as the ICTs, or even better, for less than the price difference of $100? We'll see.... no doubt it'll take time to work the EPCs up to where they need to be (rejetting, mods for equalizing tube, LABOR) but it's fun. Or it's supposed to be...

Before I begin, let me 'dis-qualify' myself by saying I am not a VW expert, but I would like to be someday. I'm a mechanical engineer and chemist which doesn't have a whole lot to do with this hobby. I have poked around and worked on cars forever, starting with VWs since my dad was a VW nut, so that may be the only thing I have going for me Cool ... Any and all comments are welcome.

1. Purchase of the EPCs and arrival. Got 'em cheap and quick, within a few days.
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Pull out a carb and take a look:
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Everything looks pretty sharp, except for the intake manifolds. They look like monkey butt. But who cares what they look like on the outside? Sealing surfaces look good with a minor ding on one, nothing too harsh. They will most definitely need cleaning up on the inside since the casting is anything but smooth. A dremel and some grinding / polishing wheels should do the trick. I'll try my hand at match-porting later.

So I've read that these carbs are jetted lean from the factory. 52/130/160 (idle/main/air correction). I got larger size jets which seem to have worked for other folks. 57/140/160, no change to air corr. This is the first cost at about $26. Picked up some German braided fuel line too, despite my doubts that it's really all that much better than standard fuel tubing. I would have done the same for an ICT so that cost doesn't count. I got a Uni-sync too, again something I would have bought either way.

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Next on the list is the parts and work that needs to be done to make an equalizing tube between the manifolds. This is a point where I'd like to hear from everyone on whether this would have been necessary (or recommended) on the ICT's. If not, I will count the cost of the parts towards this challenge. I'm only doing it on these because I hear it's really necessary. And for those that want to know, I'm running a SVDA so I plan to get vacuum from one or both of the carbs depending on what I need. That's about it for now! More later...
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AlteWagen
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

save yourself the headache and sell them quickly. Both the empi epc and weber ict have a design flaw that can potentially damage your engine. The throttle shafts lay directly on the carb body with no bushing or bearing and wear quickly (empi even faster due to soft casting material). In only a few thousand miles they will begin to leak causing a lean condition which if left un attended can lead to engine overheating result in a variety of ultimate failure.

The gen 2.0 and 3.0 empi HPMX are better these days and will provide much better performance and mileage if jetted properly. I would recommend the 40 HPMX for your 1600.

Also the hot dog exhaust is only one step above the POS 4 tip GT. Ive seen the glass pack fall apart and block the outlets causing overheating as well. Again save yourself the headache and buy a regular header system which will provide more mileage and performance over the one you have now.

Ive run the empi premium header (flanged version) with great success for the price. The flanged J tubes needed some work but I have had no leaks at the junction common with the cheaper non flanged slip in types that use a stock clamp.

One thing you will learn fast in this hobby is that trying to save money usually costs you more than you saved to begin with. Do your research and spend wisely, you dont have to break the bank to have fun but cheap and satisfied are rare.
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlteWagen's opinion on "sell them now while you can still get your money back" seconded.

I had a set. They lasted about a year before the unbushed shafts made themselves a happy little (uncurable) vacuum leak in the butter-soft alloy EMPI uses for them. The Webers aren't bushed either (and also aren't recommended), but they're at least a more substantial alloy. I roached a few engines learning my newbie lessons, and the most important lesson that comes up repeatedly is to not buy crap parts (see signature below). They're cheaper up front, but they need to be replaced when they inevitably fail and they often take out more expensive parts with them and are thus far more expensive in the long run. Was that $100 saved now worth an entirely new set of carbs AND a set of cooked heads when the vacuum leaks become a huge headache for you in just a years' time? Probably not. Better yet, do some scrounging and get a set of IDFs. A set of rebuildable cores, the kits to rebuild them, and a set of used manifolds and linkage will probably set you back something in the same ballpark, but they'll last, won't ruin anything, won't make you hate your car, will perform better and help you enjoy the car, and so on and so forth.

In short, the best method by which to realize the most enjoyment and the least pain out of a set of EMPI 34EPC carbs is to throw them up on the 'Bay and pray the VW gods will forgive you for giving EMPI money and encouraging them to keep making that crap, and that karma won't bite you in the ass for the next poor schmucks inevitable woe.

If you want to know about how to jet them (I would be SHOCKED OUT OF MY EVER LOVING MIND if EMPI jetted anything lean out of the box), get yourself a wideband setup and go to town. Also a headache saver.
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Quokka42
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EPCs are about the same quality as the ICTs, the finish of the actual carbs is a little better but I agree with the crappy workmanship on the manifolds - but hey, you'd want to polish off the Empi name anyway, wouldn't you? Empi have certainly produced a lot of unmitigated crap over the years - and they don't care - but these carbs aren't bad at all, especially for the price. Both have the problem with the throttle shaft running straight in the casting, but if you are clever you can buy bushings complete with seals and fit them - or use old fashioned methods of sealing the shafts. Crossbar linkages are never great on this type of carb, but getting a good push-pull would kind of kill your low cost target.

They actually usually run just fine out of the box, and this is what they are good for: Use them to run up an engine before having to sort out EFI or mega carbs, to get a bit of top end out of an engine until you can afford to rebuild it, etc... By the time you rebush them, buy and fit a good linkage, clean them all up and replace the air filters you might as well buy real carbs if you are serious about your car.

Oh, and BTW - don't bother with the balance tube. It's not usually used on these, you will have to rejet and it won't add any great benefits.
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marbleknight
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome feedback. Thanks to all who have replied so far. After looking at the throttle shaft I have to agree... the design is not made to last. Since I'm not really in a position to just sell the carbs and fork out $500 at the least for HPMXs or even more for the IDFs, I'll look at installing some bushings. I think this has been discussed multiple times before, and it looks like the fix is pretty reasonable:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=348521

Any other design issues with these little buggers?

Thanks Quokka42 for the advice on the balance tube; I'll be more than happy to leave it off. I can always put it in later on if need be.

Also I scanned all the installation info that came with the kit. I could not find this on the net so I'm putting it here in case someone else wants to see before they buy.
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mxracer
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quokka42 wrote:
<snip>

Oh, and BTW - don't bother with the balance tube. It's not usually used on these, you will have to rejet and it won't add any great benefits.


Huh?... a balance tube is always used on these and all single throat dual carb setup (ICT, Solex, etc.). Even from the VW factory. That's the reason the bosses are cast into the manifolds.

Just my .02 (from direct experience) if you don't do a balance tube it will not idle right for you.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've re-bushed the throttle shaft on a weber ict. There isn't really a lot of material in the carb body right there, so selecting a bushing with the right wall thickness is critical. I bought some bronze bushings from mcmaster-carr and had to cut the OD down, and the length on one too. But, it can be done if you're determined.
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aside from the don't-give-a-shit-cause-they-just-keep-throwing-money-at-us-no-matter-what-we-shove-down-their-throats quality, there's an inherent flaw in these (and any other dual single barrel carb set) when in a VW application in that the firing order is banked. One cylinder gets more of a charge than the other because of the imbalance in engine vacuum pulling on the carbs. The first piston on a bank to fire (2/4) gets less of a charge because it must essentially start from scratch (zero vacuum due to a full 360 degrees of engine rotation without any vacuum pulling on them) to pull fuel through the carb. Fuel moves slower than air, so 2/4 get a lean charge. Since the vacuum and fuel are already flowing when 1/3 begin their intake stroke, they get the correct amount of fuel. The result is a shitty idle in the BEST scenario. At higher RPM, the pulses are close enough that things smooth out a bit, but at idle it's pretty gross.

Meanwhile, let's step back and take a look at the economics of your situation here. You've got $260 and maybe shipping in these carbs so far. You linked to a thread from Harney (who I believe retired from the business in case you were not aware) who would bush the bastards for $50. Now you're in for $310 and shipping twice more unless you're local to someone who will do it at all, and will do it for the same $50, and is local (hint, not gonna happen). Add another $50 for the shipping. $360 now, plus jets from the sound of it. $20 for a set of ICT jets is probably low, but we're arguing conservatively here. Let's add a little realism given that you stated you were told (almost assuredly incorrectly) the carbs are jetted lean (I can just about guarantee they're pig rich out of the box for a stack application) and add another conservative $20. $400 is the total as it stands just to get them to hopefully not fail the way they are famous for failing. Never mind any casting voids in the alloy (not at all uncommon in these) causing some random part to just break off in a way no one could predict... and you start over. Or maybe you realize that they really are just shitty carbs (assuming nothing goes awry with the EMPI "carb"s, which should be noted that with EMPI's famous quality control is really just "crap" with the "r" and the "a" in the wrong place and the "p" upside down... but who cares, it'll kinda run... at least for long enough to get past the warranty) and aren't giving you the sort of performance gains you were hoping for at the cost of a shitty idle... and you start over. Maybe the crappy float sticks and washes down a cylinder causing premature wear, which you didn't notice in progress because it idles so crappy anyway... and you start over with a rebuild to boot. And so on and so forth. All to "save a few bucks" (see RockCrusher's quote in my signature).

Now, let's entertain the proposed alternative: Instead of spending all that time and energy just to get the crap-carbs to kind of work, you took a fraction of that (one brief internet session to list them on eBay versus several lengthy ones to find someone that will rebush them for you, and one shipping exercise instead of two to get them sold versus sent off and sent back). You might even make a little money if you really got a good deal. Then you take that money, and go on over to the classifieds where there is a set of 40IDFs for sale right now (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1547287) for $300. Pick up a manifold/linkage set for $60 bucks, and you're in for a likely total of the same $400 AND you have a much better end result. If you take the more-than-five-minute-of-a-stranger's-time approach and check out a few swap meets, you can probably pick up the carbs for around $60 each, $30 for the rebuild kits, maybe $20 for manifolds/linkage and you're off to the races with a net savings. That's $200 all in, and that leaves you with $200 for a nice new distributor or something AND a night out with your lady to make up for all the time spent on the project (which is less than it would have been because it would work the first time) to top it all off. Do yourself a favor and just do it right the first time. You'll enjoy it more, it'll last longer, and it'll cost you less in the long run.
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"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
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spectre6000
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, another issue you're going to have is that the air filters won't stay on. The top of the carbs are tapered and the linkage bracket is too close, so when you put them on they have a tendency to just pop right off. It won't happen immediately because the rubber is still nice and soft, but after a few heat cycles (aka, after any sort of warranty expires) it'll harden up. Then the filters pop off and, if you've been really good this year, they'll fall off to the side. More likely though, they'll end up lodged down by the pulley, get chewed up and chew up a belt, which will break, which will cause the fan to stop and cause your engine to overheat. Then you're in for a belt, whatever collateral damage from the overheating, maybe a pulley, another set of air filters, and a bottle of aspirin for yet another headache that comes from buying anything with EMPI stamped on it.

I'm really not trying to be a super-asshole here. I've been down that road, and it really sucks. There were a lot of expensive lessons learned at the altar of "saving money". I'm just trying to save you the headache since you asked. It sucks, but reality does that sometimes.
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"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Believe it or not, EMPI does make some good products. I would never hesitate to buy their axles or cv joint. Although some of their earlier carburetors were far from excellent, many their new ones are just as good as the originals they copied. They have stepped up their game considerably in recent years.

A lot of the people who bash EMPI carbs are people who used them several years ago when they were honestly not that great. Just know that some things have changed since then.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marbleknight wrote:
Awesome feedback. Since I'm not really in a position to just sell the carbs and fork out $500 at the least for HPMXs or even more for the IDFs, I'll look at installing some bushings. I think this has been discussed multiple times before, and it looks like the fix is pretty reasonable:


If you wan't to re-bush them, fine. If you decide to bite the bullet and go with new webber style carbs, get the HPMX. I personally think they are better than the new webbers. The quality of webber carbs is not what they used to be. You could always find some used Italian webber IDF's and rebuild them, but that gets pricy...and they really won't be much better than the HPMX.


I know I am going to get lit up for promoting a few EMPI products, but so be it. I am trying not be be biased against their new stuff because of some major failures in the past.
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marbleknight
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanapplebomb wrote:
marbleknight wrote:
Awesome feedback. Since I'm not really in a position to just sell the carbs and fork out $500 at the least for HPMXs or even more for the IDFs, I'll look at installing some bushings. I think this has been discussed multiple times before, and it looks like the fix is pretty reasonable:


If you wan't to re-bush them, fine. If you decide to bite the bullet and go with new webber style carbs, get the HPMX. I personally think they are better than the new webbers. The quality of webber carbs is not what they used to be. You could always find some used Italian webber IDF's and rebuild them, but that gets pricy...and they really won't be much better than the HPMX.


I know I am going to get lit up for promoting a few EMPI products, but so be it. I am trying not be be biased against their new stuff because of some major failures in the past.


Yeah, EMPI seems to be a real button for some folks. But that's cool - I can understand getting burned bad by a particular product and not wanting to use said product again in the future. Actually, I have no interest in promoting EMPI either. This is an experiment, and as such it is also unbiased. I still think they can actually be made into something good and usable for way less than the really expensive carbs. If I'm wrong, we'll know soon enough and we'll move on.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, I'm not anti-EMPI, I'm pro VW hobby. "Several years ago" in my case would be 2010 or 2011. It's also not a particular product, it's several products (one mistake is easy to forgive). Even if their copies are almost as good as the originals, why throw good after bad when what they're copying (and better) is easily attainable in the same price range (sometimes more, often less). It's true, there are some things made by others to a reasonable standard and are just distributed by EMPI. You can get Bosch and I think even actual VW parts out of the EMPI catalog. The thing is, the vast majority of it is utter crap. Nearly everything they sell is "for off road use only" for liability reasons because it's so terrible and couldn't get DOT approval if it had to. Don't encourage a company who is actively destroying the hobby they supposedly serve. If John Connolly (Aircooled.net) went around and threw sand in the engines and took a baseball bat to the cars of his customers (thinking of the results from the failure of terrible EMPI parts I've seen personally), would you buy from him? Hell no! Why would I pay someone to roach my engines or stuff my car into a tree? I'm going to give my money to a vendor who sells quality products that work and who will stand behind them (like John). EMPI is not that company and has not been seemingly for "several" decades (seemingly because I've not been in the hobby for several decades and only have experience with the very very few EMPI parts and cars thus equipped that have survived that long). Every dollar they get is a dollar that goes to making more parts that destroy more cars that ultimately get taken off the road and make everything harder to find and more expensive. People are constantly bemoaning the lack of quality parts available to us; the answer is pretty easy... QUIT BUYING CRAPPY PARTS and they'll stop having any incentive to keep making them. Meanwhile, the vendors producing quality parts (Wolfsbürg West, Gene Berg, West Coast Metric, ACN, Classic Fab, and so on) will make more and more of higher and higher quality, and with higher volume comes lower prices... Everybody wins... Even EMPI if they can ever get their act together.
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-'58 German Market Deluxe Beetle (in progress)
-'84 M1009 CUCV
-'81 K10
"Buy the best, cry once." -Gene Berg
"A cheap man will always buy the cheapest thing available, and then buys another one hoping for a better result, and then spends the rest of his life in misery complaining about it. A thrifty man will buy a good part once and never think about it again." -RockCrusher
"Don't feed the Shitty Parts Monster!" -Me
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So are you saying EMPI is bad? Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spectre6000 wrote:
Aside from the don't-give-a-shit-cause-they-just-keep-throwing-money-at-us-no-matter-what-we-shove-down-their-throats quality, there's an inherent flaw in these (and any other dual single barrel carb set) when in a VW application in that the firing order is banked. One cylinder gets more of a charge than the other because of the imbalance in engine vacuum pulling on the carbs. The first piston on a bank to fire (2/4) gets less of a charge because it must essentially start from scratch (zero vacuum due to a full 360 degrees of engine rotation without any vacuum pulling on them) to pull fuel through the carb. Fuel moves slower than air, so 2/4 get a lean charge. Since the vacuum and fuel are already flowing when 1/3 begin their intake stroke, they get the correct amount of fuel. The result is a shitty idle in the BEST scenario. At higher RPM, the pulses are close enough that things smooth out a bit, but at idle it's pretty gross.

Meanwhile, let's step back and take a look at the economics of your situation here. You've got $260 and maybe shipping in these carbs so far. You linked to a thread from Harney (who I believe retired from the business in case you were not aware) who would bush the bastards for $50. Now you're in for $310 and shipping twice more unless you're local to someone who will do it at all, and will do it for the same $50, and is local (hint, not gonna happen). Add another $50 for the shipping. $360 now, plus jets from the sound of it. $20 for a set of ICT jets is probably low, but we're arguing conservatively here. Let's add a little realism given that you stated you were told (almost assuredly incorrectly) the carbs are jetted lean (I can just about guarantee they're pig rich out of the box for a stack application) and add another conservative $20. $400 is the total as it stands just to get them to hopefully not fail the way they are famous for failing. Never mind any casting voids in the alloy (not at all uncommon in these) causing some random part to just break off in a way no one could predict... and you start over. Or maybe you realize that they really are just shitty carbs (assuming nothing goes awry with the EMPI "carb"s, which should be noted that with EMPI's famous quality control is really just "crap" with the "r" and the "a" in the wrong place and the "p" upside down... but who cares, it'll kinda run... at least for long enough to get past the warranty) and aren't giving you the sort of performance gains you were hoping for at the cost of a shitty idle... and you start over. Maybe the crappy float sticks and washes down a cylinder causing premature wear, which you didn't notice in progress because it idles so crappy anyway... and you start over with a rebuild to boot. And so on and so forth. All to "save a few bucks" (see RockCrusher's quote in my signature).

Now, let's entertain the proposed alternative: Instead of spending all that time and energy just to get the crap-carbs to kind of work, you took a fraction of that (one brief internet session to list them on eBay versus several lengthy ones to find someone that will rebush them for you, and one shipping exercise instead of two to get them sold versus sent off and sent back). You might even make a little money if you really got a good deal. Then you take that money, and go on over to the classifieds where there is a set of 40IDFs for sale right now (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1547287) for $300. Pick up a manifold/linkage set for $60 bucks, and you're in for a likely total of the same $400 AND you have a much better end result. If you take the more-than-five-minute-of-a-stranger's-time approach and check out a few swap meets, you can probably pick up the carbs for around $60 each, $30 for the rebuild kits, maybe $20 for manifolds/linkage and you're off to the races with a net savings. That's $200 all in, and that leaves you with $200 for a nice new distributor or something AND a night out with your lady to make up for all the time spent on the project (which is less than it would have been because it would work the first time) to top it all off. Do yourself a favor and just do it right the first time. You'll enjoy it more, it'll last longer, and it'll cost you less in the long run.


Thanks for the posts Spectre6000. You definitely make your point very clear.
Now for some discussion. First about the banked firing order and the effect that has on 1bbl carbs: The first thing that comes to mind is that this is exactly why a balance tube is recommended for these carbs. The tube should eliminate the ‘zero vacuum’ situation when 2 and 4 start their intake since one bank will be tied to the other. As 3 draws fuel and air from its carb, it also creates some vacuum at the other carb, right? So when 2 starts to draw from its carb there’s already some fuel moving, albeit a small quantity. [[Also, wouldn’t inertia play a part in this? Air and fuel both have mass, and they get sucked at incredible velocity down into the engine. When the intake is done and the valve closes (let’s say on cylinder 3 again) then it seems to me the atomized fuel in the carb and manifold would continue to move downwards. Obviously the air part of the mixture will stop moving because it has nowhere to go but the fuel, which is about 4 times more massive than air, will not come to a complete stop. The intake on 4 will then open after the next full turn of the crankshaft, which even at a paltry 1000 RPM will occur 0.06 seconds later. Seems like the fuel will be there waiting…]]

Now for the economics part. I’ve got $270 and zero shipping in it so far. Contrary to what you assumed several times I do have someone local who can do the bushing job, let’s just say for the sake of discussion for the same price as Harney. Now I’ve got $320 in them with the biggest design flaw fixed. Whether jetting will be required remains to be seen; from what I’ve read it probably will – to the rich side. Jets were $26, so we’re at $346. As for the other ‘what ifs’, voids, bad float, well hell, anything is possible. The carbs will be inspected as good as possible before they are put on the vehicle. Not knowing what kind of quality system is used at ANY manufacturer you buy from, this is the best you can do.

I did consider buying some used IDFs or other such carbs, but you never know what you get. Likely they would need work or a full rebuild right off the bat, just like the ones I have now except I know the ones I have now are new. The linkage that came with the kit is said to be about as cheap as it gets, and I’m sure that’s true. I will be sure to post when it breaks. I'll also post video of the car idling with the carbs since we've discussed it at length.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be a super-acehole either. I think it's fun to do this kind of work, and if I can save some money in the process then it's even more fun. If it goes the other way, then it'll be a benefit to others who like me must try things out - with caution and methodical approach - before taking everything at face value. EMPI may not be the best quality out of the box, but that doesn't mean you have to bolt it to your car that way.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scotth17 wrote:
So are you saying EMPI is bad? Laughing


A lot of it is junk that I wouldn't put on any of my cars. You just have to filter out their junk from their treasures. Believe me, they do exists. Like I said, I would never heasitate to buy their axles and cv joints, or the HPMX carbs.

I have actually been encouraging them to look into making a Zenith 32 NDIX clone. How cool would that be? Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marbleknight wrote:
Thanks for the posts Spectre6000. You definitely make your point very clear.


I've been there and learned that lesson the hard way. My dad always said, "Son, any dumbass can learn from their own mistakes; a wise man learns from the mistakes of others." (He's a colorful character). I was a dumbass when I started out in this hobby and roached my share of engines, broke down on my share of road trips, etc. These days I drive my 56 year old Ghia every day and I'm the guy diagnosing peoples' issues over the phone and lending out parts and tools from my stash.

marbleknight wrote:
Now for some discussion. First about the banked firing order and the effect that has on 1bbl carbs: The first thing that comes to mind is that this is exactly why a balance tube is recommended for these carbs. The tube should eliminate the ‘zero vacuum’ situation when 2 and 4 start their intake since one bank will be tied to the other. As 3 draws fuel and air from its carb, it also creates some vacuum at the other carb, right? So when 2 starts to draw from its carb there’s already some fuel moving, albeit a small quantity.


That may be the theory, but it's not a big enough tube to do any good where it's at. There's no way it could move the volume of air at the velocity required to make a dent in that 34 mm venturi and start drawing fuel. It might help a little, but the fact that there are so many out there suggesting just leaving it off demonstrates how little good it must be doing. I personally don't recall a difference with it on or off, but left it on because I figured it was there for a reason and it didn't seem to be hurting anything. I did not have the same depth of understanding of induction then that I do now though.

marbleknight wrote:
[Also, wouldn’t inertia play a part in this? Air and fuel both have mass, and they get sucked at incredible velocity down into the engine. When the intake is done and the valve closes (let’s say on cylinder 3 again) then it seems to me the atomized fuel in the carb and manifold would continue to move downwards. Obviously the air part of the mixture will stop moving because it has nowhere to go but the fuel, which is about 4 times more massive than air, will not come to a complete stop. The intake on 4 will then open after the next full turn of the crankshaft, which even at a paltry 1000 RPM will occur 0.06 seconds later. Seems like the fuel will be there waiting…]

Again, in theory that has merit, but in practice you're not moving things fast enough at idle for it to play out. It does smooth out at higher RPM, but your idle will just suck and the whole car rocks side to side because the engine is only really firing right on two cylinders. If you have the ability, get a feel for the idle with a stock carb or dual two barrels and you'll see a pretty obvious difference. The easiest thing I can think of is to find something that jiggles a bit like a mirror or a decklid and keep an eye on it. On a Ghia at least, the decklid is heavy enough and sprung such that it'll wobble a bit if the idle is funky; with a good idle it's steady as a rock.

marbleknight wrote:
Now for the economics part. I’ve got $270 and zero shipping in it so far. Contrary to what you assumed several times I do have someone local who can do the bushing job, let’s just say for the sake of discussion for the same price as Harney. Now I’ve got $320 in them with the biggest design flaw fixed. Whether jetting will be required remains to be seen; from what I’ve read it probably will – to the rich side. Jets were $26, so we’re at $346. As for the other ‘what ifs’, voids, bad float, well hell, anything is possible. The carbs will be inspected as good as possible before they are put on the vehicle. Not knowing what kind of quality system is used at ANY manufacturer you buy from, this is the best you can do.

I did consider buying some used IDFs or other such carbs, but you never know what you get. Likely they would need work or a full rebuild right off the bat, just like the ones I have now except I know the ones I have now are new. The linkage that came with the kit is said to be about as cheap as it gets, and I’m sure that’s true. I will be sure to post when it breaks. I'll also post video of the car idling with the carbs since we've discussed it at length.

So now we have actual numbers. Groovy.

To KNOW about the jetting, get a hold of a wideband. I just about guarantee it's rich out of the box on an otherwise stock engine. An inexpensive, but not cheap to the point of flawed wideband setup is to get the gauge version of the Innovate setup. It's the same everything according to the Innovate guy I talked to over the phone, but in a smaller and less portable package that requires a laptop for some of the functionality (none of which I'm all that interested in) and I recall buying mine for about $150 (think of this as a tool, not a part because you'll use it MANY times once you realize the magic). Then mount it into a little metal box with the plugs and such on the side, and you've just saved $150 and purchased the exact same product with the exact same capabilities as the otherwise standard. The shop here in Denver suggested jets that were a few sizes bigger than necessary (so much so that it made my eyes water at my house, which to be fair would have required a few sizes smaller even than that due to the altitude differences).

To continue putting things on the same plane, you can certainly make the case that there is a chance for manufacturing flaws from any manufacturer. The difference is that Weber is KNOWN for quality and EMPI is KNOWN for crap. That's why Weber is Weber and EMPI is EMPI and Snap-On is Snap-On and GEX is GEX. To say that anything is possible may be philosophically true in the same way that atoms could align such that my finger could just go right through my keyboard at any moment; technically it could happen (not really, but I couldn't think of a better example), but the odds are pretty heavily skewed one way versus the other.

I assume buying used carbs (or any used parts) that they're going to need a rebuild. When I buy a car, I budget time and money for a new wiring harness, new brakes, engine rebuild, and tranny rebuild no matter what the seller says. That means I'm only really interested in the body/chassis/paint/accessories and I'm adding a few grand and a few months (I do my own work in my free time) in my head before I get to drive it. So far, the wiring harness has been a 100% activity. I usually decide to do an engine whether it needs it or not just so I know the history and what's going on. Brakes have been a 100% item for safety's sake. Trannys I'm about 50/50, but whatever in that budget doesn't get used goes to something else (suspension and miscellaneous top end in my most recent exercise). That said, IDFs are very common carbs and very easy to find at swap meets. Assume it's going to need a rebuild and add $30 (I think that's what the kits are running from Weber) to your price of admission per carb. It's really not uncommon to find them for around $60 at a swap meet, and I linked to a reasonably priced set above that could undoubtedly be talked down a bit, and I only looked on the first page of results for the 5 seconds it took to skim the page; had I been on a real bargain hunt I'm sure they could be had much much cheaper. You do need to know not to buy them with bent throttle shafts or what have you (or bake that into the purchase price), and you have to put sweat equity into them (which most people don't mind doing in this hobby). Finally there are lots of people like me with vast quantities of parts that are good but not in use for various piddling reasons who could be talked out of things like manifolds and linkage for a song. I have a steel crossbar setup with manifolds set up for an otherwise stock application with air filters and everything (though one of the eight clamps that holds the air filter top is missing and it has short Ghia filters, which is why it's not in use) that I'd let go for a song simply because it's taking up space and I don't have any plans for it in the foreseeable future... If you can rebuild a carb (the hardest part for most people is just getting the balls to do it), that's how you save money with the carb upgrades.

marbleknight wrote:
Anyway, I'm not trying to be a super-acehole either. I think it's fun to do this kind of work, and if I can save some money in the process then it's even more fun. If it goes the other way, then it'll be a benefit to others who like me must try things out - with caution and methodical approach - before taking everything at face value. EMPI may not be the best quality out of the box, but that doesn't mean you have to bolt it to your car that way.

I know all about things not being ready to go out of the box (see the Pertronix SVDA vacuum thread going on to see my own flailing about in that manner because that's purported to be the best thing available right now and there is enough good stuff in there to make it work if I can just find specs for the damn vacuum pots...). I understand and appreciate the scientific inquiry, but I honestly feel it's misguided. You really and truly won't be saving any money over rebuilding a better set of carbs, and you'll be worse off in the long run. If you want to save money and REALLY want to run ICTs, get a set with worn out castings and have them bushed like you're already having to do. I'll bet you could pick them up for next to nothing at a swap meet (MUCH cheaper than a set of IDF cores), and they'll probably come in a big box with a bunch of other junk parts that you'll essentially get for free in the deal that you could fence in the classifieds bit by bit to make your money back!

Clearly, you can't be dissuaded though, so I'll watch. In the interest of academic rigor and honesty, please do a full autopsy when they do fail so more people can see in photos and such why they should support quality parts vendors versus being complacent in the destruction of the hobby versus having to hear about it through opinionated jerks like me. Smile I hope to see more of you on here, and I'll keep an eye out in about a year for the closing report.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spectre6000 wrote:
The difference is that Weber is KNOWN for quality


If you bolt on a set of "made in the usa" flat back webers you WILL change your mind!
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlteWagen wrote:
spectre6000 wrote:
The difference is that Weber is KNOWN for quality


If you bolt on a set of "made in the usa" flat back webers you WILL change your mind!


Ture, very true...seams to be the story of most modern carbs though.

Still, I have to agree, Webber's are NOT what they used to be.

For the people that concerned about the name on the carb, get an old Italian IDF and rebuild it. For the people who don't give a crap about what name is on it, get the HPMX carbs...cheeper and better than the new webs.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've not seen the American made ones. Are they not making them in Spain anymore?
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